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Using RTR models to represent the LSWR

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Yes, I think the salmon/brown LSWR livery set represents a 4 1/2 set, it has what appears to be a 6 wheel luggage/brake van.  I'm thinking that a Roxey models kit of a 30'  6 wheel brake

(LSWR Dwg 688) tagged onto the modified clerestories I'm doing could make one of these sets.

 

It's here:

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/82/4c28-lswr-30ft-6wheeled-full-brake-arc-roof-/

 

One problem might be if it looked too "fine scale" against the ex-triang coaches. 

 

The green set in the video looks like brake/comp/comp/brake.

 

There were 39 4 coach sets of the 56' non corridor coaches built between 1904 and 1910  so 4 coaches must have been common, however the triang ones scale conveniently at 48'  so represent the earlier ones better.

 

H'mm, more research...

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Yes, I think the salmon/brown LSWR livery set represents a 4 1/2 set, it has what appears to be a 6 wheel luggage/brake van.  I'm thinking that a Roxey models kit of a 30'  6 wheel brake

(LSWR Dwg 688) tagged onto the modified clerestories I'm doing could make one of these sets.

 

It's here:

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/82/4c28-lswr-30ft-6wheeled-full-brake-arc-roof-/

 

One problem might be if it looked too "fine scale" against the ex-triang coaches. 

 

The green set in the video looks like brake/comp/comp/brake.

 

There were 39 4 coach sets of the 56' non corridor coaches built between 1904 and 1910  so 4 coaches must have been common, however the triang ones scale conveniently at 48'  so represent the earlier ones better.

 

H'mm, more research...

 

If you can find them second hand, PC Kits/Wheeltappers used to do the 4 56' non-corridors, suitable for cross-country/semi-fast services.  Not everyone takes to the pre-printed sides, but they can build into nice models.

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Guys,

 

Graham Baker (GRAMODELS) is planning kits in 4mm of the 42' & 45' stock. Probably a complete body, with details to be added then roof and bogies attached.

 

Bill

He's still planning the 4mm version? I met Graham at the Chatham show in the spring and got chatting about LSWR rolling stock. He showed me a 42ft carriage body in OO and described how he was intending to shrink all the detailing down to N Gauge for the likes of me. Perhaps that was only a pre-production sample...? It looked very nice though, and I'd welcome a rake of them in N Gauge.

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He's still planning the 4mm version? I met Graham at the Chatham show in the spring and got chatting about LSWR rolling stock. He showed me a 42ft carriage body in OO and described how he was intending to shrink all the detailing down to N Gauge for the likes of me. Perhaps that was only a pre-production sample...? It looked very nice though, and I'd welcome a rake of them in N Gauge.

 

I very much enjoyed seeing your work.  It reinforces the point that early Grouping (anything 1935 and older, really) is also seriously neglected, and I think that dividing up consideration of RTR representation between pre and post-Grouping is unhelpful and misses the point. 

 

I have considered the GW in 1935, and realised that it is materially harder to represent this in 4mm compared with, say, 1936 or 1938 (latterly the Hornby Colletts have made a huge difference, however).  Extending this "thought experiment" to the same line in 1929 or 1927 places me in very difficult territory.  Many more older classes extant, fully lined coaches etc.

 

It struck me that if you had been a Southern modeller in the LSW area in OO, you would be no better off in certain regards in 1930 than you would be in, say, 1914.  All the RTR ex-LSW coaching would be too late for you.

 

Modelling in 2mm probably would not make things any harder!

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But you would at least be able to go and see the real thing, although times were a lot tougher then, and few had the time let alone money to spend on anything as frivolous as toy trains, and there was a lot of sh1t on the horizon.

I mean: 1914, war followed by unemployment; 1930, unemployment followed by war...

 

:)

 

1905 would be best, then, as it's before the strange death of liberal England.

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1905 would be best, then, as it's before the strange death of liberal England.

I should dig  The Strange Death of  Liberal England out of my stack of old paperbacks and re-read it.  It was a fascinating exploration of a political demise. Who remembers Asquith now. 4 more weeks and will see if it happens here to the non-incumbent presidential party (i'm being so careful). 

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Is that the same "liberal" England where life expectancy at birth was about 60% of now, women did not have the vote at all but were excluded from the armed forces solely because of their gender, where 40% of men did not have the vote, and even if they did had to wait until they were twenty one, yet could be sent to war and be expected to die for their "King and country", without so much as a "by your leave"?

 

Is that the "liberal" Engand you were thinking of?

 

As opposed to entering the terminal phase of our decline to a fanfare of xenophobic and illiberal demagoguery? 

 

No, I meant the days when I would have had 2 votes and we were a beacon of (relative!) tolerance in an autocratic Europe!

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No. As opposed to the period 1945-1978, when people not only became genuinely franchised and supported by the state, but took an active role in it.

 

 

 

When not actually on strike

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Just out of interest, for something I've got in mind for way off in the future, are there any RTR locos suitable for backdating to anything the LSWR may have used in the West Country around the mid to late 1880s? This would be a fictional part of Devon with a port, where they would have running powers over the GWR. Cheap and easy conversion to P4 would be good too.

 

Any suitable coaches would be useful too. To be practical, these could be of the chopping Tri-ang clerestories about type, to produce a reasonable representation, if perfection isn't possible.

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John, actually, I would suggest that back-dating RTR to represent the LSWR in the 1880s is surprisingly possible!

 

Locomotives

 

You could have a Beattie Well Tank.  There were some shedded at Exmouth Junc. as early as the mid-1870s.  To use the Kernow RTR model, probably those re-boilered and gaining cabs under Adams are best.  Thirty-one were rebuilt and transferred out to the sticks (1883-1887) and were given tenders!   Most of  these were re-boilered, making them more likely to fit the Kernow innards. Allocations included Exeter.

 

Your best bet is, probably, the Adams Radial.  Although most were in London in their early careers, there were always some stabled in the West Country for use in North Devon and on the Exmouth branch. 

 

In 1886 these were:

 

169 - Dubs, 1884

170 - Dubs, 1884

171 - Dubs, 1884

480 - Neilson, 1883

485 - Neilson, 1885

489 - Neilson, 1885

491 - Dubs, 1884

493 - Dubs, 1884

 

For a six-coupled goods, a 395 Class (built 1881-1886) is probable, as at least by 1890 they were allocated very widely, including Exmouth Junc, Plymouth and Wadebridge.  This counts as RTR bashing as Golden Arrow do a resin body kit designed for a Hornby chassis.  Nile of this parish has built one. 

 

Coaches

 

Bogie coaches are quite rare, and probably atypical for your scenario: 2 42' composites in 1880 (which you could approximate with the Triang non-brake coach cut down 1 compartment); 12 46' composites in 1882; 6 saloons in 1885; 14 42" Lav. Tri-comps. 

 

Up to 1878 4 and 6-wheel coaches are still being built with raised beading on the waists.  Not a match for Triang or the various Ratio sides.  Adams brings in the more modern recessed waist panels.

 

4 compartments from a Triang non-brake coach would make a creditable 28' 6-wheel composite of 1878 - you need arc roof profiles for all these coaches.

 

The 5 compartments from a Triang brake coach would make a creditable 30' 6-wheel second of 1879-1890.

 

It would take the brake end parts from 3 Triang brake coaches to make a 30' 6-wheel brake van of 1882.

 

You could derive both a 30' 6-wheel third and 30' 6-wheel brake third of 1886-90 from Triang brake coaches.

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post-4032-0-68977800-1476226484.jpg

 

No time for modelling now  but hopefully later this week if it doesn't rain further progress will happen...

 

Just picked up on the conversation about the problem of modelling eras that may have been grim to live in.  Food for thought there.

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attachicon.gifP1180533.JPG

 

No time for modelling now  but hopefully later this week if it doesn't rain further progress will happen...

 

Just picked up on the conversation about the problem of modelling eras that may have been grim to live in.  Food for thought there.

 

Looking good.

 

I recall that, as a child, the thing that brought home to me that the historic railway existed in the, often troubled, real world, was the graffiti that Jack Nelson had added to one of his superb LNWR scenes, which read "Hang the Kaiser"

 

Pre-Grouping graffiti!  Can't say fairer than that!

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I very much enjoyed seeing your work.  It reinforces the point that early Grouping (anything 1935 and older, really) is also seriously neglected, and I think that dividing up consideration of RTR representation between pre and post-Grouping is unhelpful and misses the point. 

 

I have considered the GW in 1935, and realised that it is materially harder to represent this in 4mm compared with, say, 1936 or 1938 (latterly the Hornby Colletts have made a huge difference, however).  Extending this "thought experiment" to the same line in 1929 or 1927 places me in very difficult territory.  Many more older classes extant, fully lined coaches etc.

 

It struck me that if you had been a Southern modeller in the LSW area in OO, you would be no better off in certain regards in 1930 than you would be in, say, 1914.  All the RTR ex-LSW coaching would be too late for you.

 

Modelling in 2mm probably would not make things any harder!

I usually tell people who ask that I'm modelling pre-Grouping in Grouping colours. In N Gauge you can do pretty well in locos for that period (I model the SR, LMS, and S&DJR), because much of the upgrading to pre-Grouping locos had already been done by 1930. Locos that are largely produced for the transition era modellers are still accurate for me - and I have the bonus of Union Mills locos.

 

Rolling stock can be more difficult, but wagon kits (Etched Pixels, N Gauge Society) or Gramodel resin bodies help a great deal. Maunsell carriages from Dapol are good for top-notch passenger services, and as you've seen, old Farish suburban coaches can be hacked to produce something pretty convincing for other services.

 

Still on the to-do list is sawing two suburbans in half to produce a couple of 44ft SECR 6-Compt carriages. My excuse is that they were in service on the S&D by the mid-1930s and their whereabouts before that are hazy (as is the case with a lot of pre-Grouping coaches). I'm looking forward to that hack but need Etched Pixels to re-open his business so that I can get a couple of GWR siphon roofs...

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As far as locomotives go, if your period goes to the end of 1889, you could include Adams' O2, which arrived in July of that year.  The ones that stayed on the mainland remained relatively unchanged, apart from boiler fittings.  I don't know what varieties Kernow have produced, but I suspect they haven't done one with the rather austere stovepipe chimney they started with, although there may be one with an Adams' style dome onto which a new stovepipe could be grafted.

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Re #59 et seq, the Liberals (continuing into their current incarnation as the Lib Dems) have at least, maintained a consistent policy of actually saying what they represent politically, and holding to that course.

 

It might be felt that such a policy might usefully be accompanied by representing a course of action that people will actually vote for, but you can't have everything...

Edited by rockershovel

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As far as locomotives go, if your period goes to the end of 1889, you could include Adams' O2, which arrived in July of that year.  The ones that stayed on the mainland remained relatively unchanged, apart from boiler fittings.  I don't know what varieties Kernow have produced, but I suspect they haven't done one with the rather austere stovepipe chimney they started with, although there may be one with an Adams' style dome onto which a new stovepipe could be grafted.

It may be OK date wise, but that then raises the converting to P4 challenge, that I think has been mentioned on the O2 topic.

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Came across this youtube video that was mentioned on today's MREmag.com     It's on the Scaleforum exhibition that was held recently at Aylesbury.  The first layout on the video is called  "Lee on the Solent" and has some LSWR stock running. Terrier in LSWR and an O2 plus some coaches, gate stock push pull,  (plus 48' comp and 24'  4 wheeled luggage van, I think!) and a short freight train.  Worth a look imho.

 

Edited by railroadbill
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Came across this youtube video that was mentioned on today's MREmag.com     It's on the Scaleforum exhibition that was held recently at Aylesbury.  The first layout on the video is called  "Lee on the Solent" and has some LSWR stock running. Terrier in LSWR and an O2 plus some coaches, gate stock push pull,  (plus 48' comp and 24'  4 wheeled luggage van, I think!) and a short freight train.  Worth a look imho.

 

 

Thanks, for that.  Great breakfast viewing.

 

I was enjoying the layout, with its Southern traffic on Lee-on-Solent, it is beautiful and atmospheric, but I have to say my pulse quickened when I saw the salmon and brown stock. 

 

Next we had an O2 in Urie sage green with salmon and brown Gate Stock.  Stunning, simply stunning. To think that, with just a little bit more effort, Kernow could have produced just such a train.  Shame.

 

One thing to add to the accessories wish-list are some replacement ends for the Kernow Gate Stock - perhaps in resin.

 

Next we had some wonderful LB&SCR scenes with Ferring, and,at the end, Cirencester, a considerable bonus.

 

Thanks for posting.

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The coaches I sprayed with precision paints LSWR brown on Wednesday have been in the garage under a plastic box to keep the dust off. Busy until today so now taken the masking tape off (tamaya on the edges then wide strip of low tack decorators tape over the middle). 

 

post-4032-0-64542700-1476550953.jpg

 

 

Part of this exercise was to see if I could air brush the precision enamel colours. I've actually got a very straight forward Revell air brush, used with a propellant can.  I only use this on still warm days in the garden or end of the garage.  Don't use it very much, tend to use Halfords acrylic spray cans for matt black, primer etc. and the  wagon kits I've made I've brush painted (which usually works fine on planking, with modern acrylic modelling paint).

 

These coaches were first primed using Halfords white primer.

 

post-4032-0-02339400-1476552616.jpg

 

 

The Precision web site gives some very good instructions about using their paint.   They suggest 1/3 thinners  to 2/3 paint, and being sure to stir the paint thoroughly   They also suggest a quicker drying thinner with enamel, which I'd already got having it recommended by the local model shop.  They also suggest holding the air brush much closer to the subject than normally recommended, say 6" rather than 12"  so I did that. 

 

I'd initially had problems with the air brush picking up any paint at all, but on the second go i fitted a new neoprene tube that sucks up paint from the bottle, and all was fine with the salmon coat.   When I came to spray the brown coat several days later, after masking the coaches,  I had trouble getting an even spray. The paint was to the same mixture, like skimmed milk, but it started to come out in "blotches".   I wonder if the can wasn't providing enough pressure.  After some fidding   things got a bit better and I was able to get an even coating in the end.

 

post-4032-0-31437600-1476553452.jpg

 

Rather step by step description of what I did, but it's been a useful exercise in spraying enamel.    Now to make new roofs....

 

 

 

 

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John, actually, I would suggest that back-dating RTR to represent the LSWR in the 1880s is surprisingly possible!

 

Locomotives

......

Your best bet is, probably, the Adams Radial.  Although most were in London in their early careers, there were always some stabled in the West Country for use in North Devon and on the Exmouth branch. 

 

In 1886 these were:

 

169 - Dubs, 1884

170 - Dubs, 1884

171 - Dubs, 1884

480 - Neilson, 1883

485 - Neilson, 1885

489 - Neilson, 1885

491 - Dubs, 1884

493 - Dubs, 1884

I've been having a bit of a ponder about this, and am thinking it might be best to get a loco sooner rather than later. I might pick up a secondhand one cheaper in a year or two, but with the falling pound and Hornby prices rising so others may follow, maybe I should grab one now. Anyway, it's my birthday in a couple of weeks!

 

I'm thinking of the Oxford Radial, as it's a lot cheaper than Hornby. The daylight under the boiler problem can be sorted when I convert it to P4. So:

1) Which version is easiest to backdate to as built condition?

2) What date range does the LSWR livery of the as preserved one represent? If it's not the easiest to backdate, is it still practical?

 

I'd be inclined to buy the LSWR livery version as it's more usable until it gets worked on.

 

I tried searching the topic on the Oxford Radial for any mention of EM or P4, but either it hasn't been discussed, or search doesn't work properly. I think I'd like to be able to shove the wheels out to EM to start with, so I can run it on Abbotsbridge, then do a full rebuild and convert to P4 some time in the future. If I decide to buy, I'll ask there, but has anyone reading this done it?

 

Are there any good sources of early photos without having to buy expensive books?

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I've been having a bit of a ponder about this, and am thinking it might be best to get a loco sooner rather than later. I might pick up a secondhand one cheaper in a year or two, but with the falling pound and Hornby prices rising so others may follow, maybe I should grab one now. Anyway, it's my birthday in a couple of weeks!

 

I'm thinking of the Oxford Radial, as it's a lot cheaper than Hornby. The daylight under the boiler problem can be sorted when I convert it to P4. So:

1) Which version is easiest to backdate to as built condition?

2) What date range does the LSWR livery of the as preserved one represent? If it's not the easiest to backdate, is it still practical?

 

I'd be inclined to buy the LSWR livery version as it's more usable until it gets worked on.

 

I tried searching the topic on the Oxford Radial for any mention of EM or P4, but either it hasn't been discussed, or search doesn't work properly. I think I'd like to be able to shove the wheels out to EM to start with, so I can run it on Abbotsbridge, then do a full rebuild and convert to P4 some time in the future. If I decide to buy, I'll ask there, but has anyone reading this done it?

 

Are there any good sources of early photos without having to buy expensive books?

 

John, I don't own the expensive books, but I'll scan what pictures I have, including those from the RCTS volume, which I do have.

 

I would say that you certainly want the "as preserved" No. 488, which both Oxford and Hornby have produced.

 

Why?

 

Well, it's the closest physically to the original appearance, so if you have to make changes, that is likely to be because you want to represent one from a different builder/batch.   In terms of backdating, as opposed to modifying for a different variant, I think l the only change is removing the coal rails and lowering the bunker tank feed.

 

The ones that remained with the Southern for Lyme had rebuilt front ends to have straight (I don't know what they are called!) bracing plates or ribs, as opposed to curved, and gained a lower slide bar.  488 did not gain these features through having gone into K&ESR ownership before return to the Lyme branch (c.1946?).

 

I am no hand at all at all the boiler swops and what nots for the Lyme Regis Three, as this is Out of Period for me, but some probably have a Drummond boiler, easily spotted because the dome incorporates the safety valve.  You need to avoid these.  488 looks like she has an Adams boiler and dome.

 

Now, I, and others here, point to the fact that LSWR condition Radials have no lower slide bar.  That is not quite true. Three Radials, 0125, 521 and 0419 were modified for work on the Lyme Regis Branch in 1913-4.  The reason 2 of the 3 have a '0' is because, the entire class was placed on the duplicate list from 1904, but this process took until 1922!  Of these 3 original Lyme Radiasl, 0419 and 0125 were fitted with double slide bars prior to service on the branch.  As you are concerned with North Devon/Exmouth in the 1880s, you should stick to single slide bar models.

 

If you can avoid drastic cosmetic changes,488 is also helpful because she wears the Pea Green Adams livery, and you are depicting the Adams era. 

 

Things may be a little more complicated for your chosen period, however.  Adams abandoned his umber livery in June 1885, when locomotives started to emerge in his black-bordered, white-lined Pea Green, as on the Hornby and Oxford models.  But:

 

  • Some of the Radials on your list are built in 1883 and 1884, so perhaps would have worn umber "with a broad black band edging the splashers, cabsides, and .. side tank panes.  The inner side of this band being edged by a fine green line, which was separated by about an inch from a narrow orange band and a second fine green line.  The boiler lagging bands were painted black with two fine orange lines and white edging"

 

  • Those of 488's batch were built in 1885, but, the Pea Green did not become standard for all passenger classes until 1887, so it is entirely possible that an 1885-built Radial was out-shopped in the other livery introduced that year, Holly Green, which, after 1887, was retained for Goods Classes. This had "narrow black edging and single bright green line".

 

Drummond comes on the scene in 1895, so any repaint to his more elaborate livery would be sometime post that. I am conscious that research sometimes overturns our understanding of locomotive liveries, and I am quoting from a work of 1965.

 

In your list of West Country Radials in 1886 are 3 from the same batch as the preserved 488, so, details like curved front frame plates (I believe they differed between manufacturers) and the splasher works plate (oval) are a match.  So, if I were you (and I might very well do this myself), I would think that the bunker modifications and renumbering is probably all that is required, unless you want to back date the livery.

 

Finally, Nile of this parish rebuilt one of the Oxford models and achieved light under the boiler!

Edited by Edwardian

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Thanks. I think that's all the cosmetic stuff I need to know for now. This is preparation for a long term project, so hopefully repainting won't be a problem by then if it proves to be necessary. If the EM conversion is practical, it will be running on Abbotsbridge in 1905, but even if the livery is wrong for that date, it won't be as wrong as Southern or BR!

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I've ordered an Oxford preserved one from Track Shack, so it should be here on Tuesday if previous experience of their lightening service is repeated. It seems that EM and P4 conversions may be easier on the Hornby one, but they're a lot more expensive, and I can build, or do a major rebuild, of the chassis for less than the difference. If I have to dump the chassis entirely, I'd rather do it to an £80 loco than an over £100 one.

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I've ordered an Oxford preserved one from Track Shack, so it should be here on Tuesday if previous experience of their lightening service is repeated. It seems that EM and P4 conversions may be easier on the Hornby one, but they're a lot more expensive, and I can build, or do a major rebuild, of the chassis for less than the difference. If I have to dump the chassis entirely, I'd rather do it to an £80 loco than an over £100 one.

 

Well, it would be interesting to read of your progress should you post it here.

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Well, it would be interesting to read of your progress should you post it here.

I'll look at the EM conversion first, in the hope that it's a quick job. I probably won't do more than see if removing the coal rails is straightforward on the body at the moment. I need to do some research and find suitable photos.

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