Gaugemaster DCC80 Autofrog problem

[sharkman]

I've just started to install these devices in conjunction with Peco code 75 pointwork and I'm overall impressed with them and how you can practically derail the loco with the blades against it and not short circuit!

 

But I've noticed with a couple of Bachmann class 08's fitted with their chips the loco slows down soon as it hits the section of the point controlled by the juicer but once clear of it speeds up again. So I thought I'd try a Hornby 08 again with short wheelbase and see if that did the same and believe it or not it went straight over it with no speed loss. Now i know this loco is fitted with a Gaugemaster chip one of the all in one chips, pins and module as an all in one plugin.

 

I'm interested if anyone else has had a similar problem?

 

Thanks

 

Ian

 

 

[sharkman]

RESOLVED - replaced Bachmann chips with Gaugemaster and problem solved.

[rodge]

I am having great difficulties with y Autofrog operation;  basically, they are not switching.  Gaugemaster have kindly checked most of my units and confirm they are fit for use.  But, locs stall on the frogs, and(using Gaugemaster's suggestions) pushing a metal-wheeled wagon over the point does not trip the relay.  I'm using an NCE DCC controller.  All points are peco electrofrog with the underneath links from switch blades to frogs removed, and switch blades bonded to running rails.

Any ideas?

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, rodge said:

I am having great difficulties with y Autofrog operation;  basically, they are not switching.  Gaugemaster have kindly checked most of my units and confirm they are fit for use.  But, locs stall on the frogs, and(using Gaugemaster's suggestions) pushing a metal-wheeled wagon over the point does not trip the relay.  I'm using an NCE DCC controller.  All points are peco electrofrog with the underneath links from switch blades to frogs removed, and switch blades bonded to running rails.

Any ideas?

Yes mate, not enough grunt through your Power Cab and if you have a couple of loco's on the layout and several of these plus point motors tied to your track BUS, the froggy will not switch as it is actually a 'solenoid switch' in that white box. Had the same problem on my layout some time ago and thought they were all failing but a mate identified the mechanical 'problem', when I thought it was actually a digital juicer which it is not! I upped the input into my cab through a decent 'controlled supply rather than the  NCE supplied one and upped my short protection system just in case, but have replaced almost all of my DCC80s as I fitted point motors. PM me if you want to chat further about it.

Phil

Edited October 24, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Phil S]

The other consideration, with such auto reversers (and this is just half of one), is the quality of the local power feed ... not just the source's capacity which was the resolution in the previous answer.

This might appear more often as  problem with LONG auto reversing sections rather than the short distances involved with a frog reverser..

 

The 'short-circuit' based type of detector requires the wiring to be ABLE to carry a 'large' short circuit current ...although the sole purpose of the circuitry is then to stop this continuing for more than the briefest moment  (and before heating is a problem).

A GOOD bus to EACH Side of the auto reverser and BOTH ends is needed. With the frog reverser the physical distance is removed but the point must still receive a Good feed to detect reliably.  A single metal wheel bridging the gap when the phase/polarity is wrong should be all that is needed...

 

 

[geoffers]

Interesting. Had this problem a while back too with electrofrogs. Never solved the issue and took the sutofrogs down. Never thought about lack of grunt from the NCE PowerCab. Now sorted in the station/goods yards by using point motors but still hand operated in the fiddle yard.and relying on the switch blades. At least it is working.

[Mallard60022]

26 minutes ago, geoffers said:

Interesting. Had this problem a while back too with electrofrogs. Never solved the issue and took the sutofrogs down. Never thought about lack of grunt from the NCE PowerCab. Now sorted in the station/goods yards by using point motors but still hand operated in the fiddle yard.and relying on the switch blades. At least it is working.

If you think about it Jeffers, a loco pulling (say) 0.60/0.65 amps on a train and another  even just sitting on the track but more likely moving and pulling another lot of 0.60amps, is almost taking up the output from the cab! When said loco gets to the frog in question, that frog switch  probably needs an amp to 'throw' the solenoid in the little box, then there ain't enough grunt and the loco stalls on the point in one direction (but not every loco used to on my train set). I have proper job Tam Valley digital juicers elsewhere (six outputs each) and they work just fine but are, sadly, around twice the cost of 6 Autofrogs from Gaugemaster .

[Paul80]

I have been using the Gaugemaster Autofrogs on quite a few layouts and with a number of different controllers ie Gaugemaster Prodigy, Lenz and a MERG system and never had any issues with them.

 

Paul

[Sol]

On 25/10/2019 at 04:31, Mallard60022 said:

Yes mate, not enough grunt through your Power Cab and if you have a couple of loco's on the layout and several of these plus point motors tied to your track BUS, the froggy will not switch as it is actually a 'solenoid switch' in that white box. Had the same problem on my layout some time ago and thought they were all failing but a mate identified the mechanical 'problem', when I thought it was actually a digital juicer which it is not! I upped the input into my cab through a decent 'controlled supply rather than the  NCE supplied one and upped my short protection system just in case, but have replaced almost all of my DCC80s as I fitted point motors. PM me if you want to chat further about it.

Phil

 

 

The Gaugemaster Autofrog DCC80, yes has a relay and power consumption is 20mA - it does not switch solenoids but changes power on the frog.

[geoffers]

Have upgaded amperage to 5amps now but am reluctant to mess around with the electrofrog points again so as long as they work. Originally installed them as my five Hornby unrebuilt light pacifics and a Q1 all shorted out on the points. Installed the Autofrogs and they worked perfectly until just before Christmas when they all failed. Suspecting a power surge I bought replacements but these also failed to work. Took the Autofrogs out and fettled the points so they would work again and they do but the six original sinners short out again. Only Hornby locos as the Bachmann, Heljan and Dapol and SLW have no problems. Have messed about with the locos back to backs especally the front bogie and there is an improvement so maybe the btbs are the issue all along.

[Mallard60022]

17 hours ago, Sol said:

 

 

The Gaugemaster Autofrog DCC80, yes has a relay and power consumption is 20mA - it does not switch solenoids but changes power on the frog.

Sorry Sol I meant relay but could not remember that when I posted

 

[LBSC123]

Posting in this in here rather than starting a new thread as it's related to autofrogs. 

 

Finally got around to testing my wiring on DCC today as I only just got a loco and controller sorted.

I've wired these up as per the instructions, except I have put the track feed wires into my bus wires, rather than directly to the track (I've got a friend who has done this and their layout works fine). However, I've got a problem, the frogs all work for one route, and the loco runs along these smoothly, however for the other road the locomotive stops at the frog and doesn't move until one set of wheels it past it, there is also no clicking sound from these. 

I'm pretty stumped as to what could be the problem, I'm using a Prodigy controller and the loco in question is a Hornby Terrier with a Hornby 6 pin chip. 

 

Any advice as to what the problem could be would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Will

[LBSC123]

Update: the relays were ‘sticky’ and after using a wire between the two contacts to get them to ‘click’ they now work well under normal operation. 

[shottsj]

On 10/10/2020 at 14:06, LBSC123 said:

Update: the relays were ‘sticky’ and after using a wire between the two contacts to get them to ‘click’ they now work well under normal operation. 

Hi LBSC123! I am having this issue too, but it seems to apply to 'short' locos only, like Jinty 0-6-0s, but a really old Minitrix Boadicea trips the relay perfectly every time. Which is frustrating. The symptom is that the locos stall first time through on a 'new' points setting, but then once you push them through they relay appears to have been tripped and they run back the other way perfectly. Some of the other solutions here sound a bit drastic, and yours sound simple.
Except that I don't understand exactly what you have done. What contacts did you put a wire between to get what to 'click'...?

[Mallard60022]

Another thing I find is that certain Decoders (Hornby?) don't 'like' these items and if there are (say) 6 loco's around the layout, with two big uns running on heavy trains and using up about 80 parts of the 1.5 Amps (18 V) available through the NCE Cab, the first moves can be sticky; not a complete stop but a stop and then go. Then the things seem to work after a first use! No idea why this happens. It also doesn't always happen! They will be almost all replaced eventually by the Point Motors but that is for the future. Think I've got about 6 left in service? Such fun.

P

Edited June 23, 2021 by Mallard60022

[BWsTrains]

On 25/10/2019 at 05:01, Mallard60022 said:

Yes mate, not enough grunt through your Power Cab

 

This quote caught my attention because an experienced colleague has recommended the DCC80 for my DCC Electrofrog switching and I've a NCE Power Cab.

 

Hence I conducted  a simple test as the NCE provides a current meter option.

 

I wired the DCC80 across my frog using the test track output of my layout, current draw 0mA with no loco in place.

Placed my test loco, a Hornby 2021 vintage Terrier on the turnout and let it run. The loco was drawing just a few mA and as it crossed the frog (preset with adverse polarity) you could hear a tiny "click" as the relay tripped and the loco sailed through without a stutter. Barely a ripple in the reported current and from the minimal sound of the relay very little would be needed.

 

None of this bears any resemblance to the cited "issues" of the earlier post but as I'm moving forward, it appears the current product should work without problems under a normal current load through the NCE, viz the DCC80 will not add materially to current flow

 

Running a lot of locos? Then the base Powercab unit will be under powered anyway, frog juicing or not.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

 

This quote caught my attention because an experienced colleague has recommended the DCC80 for my DCC Electrofrog switching and I've a NCE Power Cab.

 

Hence I conducted  a simple test as the NCE provides a current meter option.

 

I wired the DCC80 across my frog using the test track output of my layout, current draw 0mA with no loco in place.

Placed my test loco, a Hornby 2021 vintage Terrier on the turnout and let it run. The loco was drawing just a few mA and as it crossed the frog (preset with adverse polarity) you could hear a tiny "click" as the relay tripped and the loco sailed through without a stutter. Barely a ripple in the reported current and from the minimal sound of the relay very little would be needed.

......

 

I think you've done the "wrong" test...     You've so far showed that the DCC80 doesn't draw enough power on its own to trip the NCE PowerCab.    (Or DCC80 plus a very low current draw loco).  

 

A better test might be to run a realistically maximum load loco on the track, and see if that loco plus the DCC80 causes problems.   So, worst power consumption loco you own, at low speed trying to accelerate the heaviest train likely to be run on the layout.  

 

The digital current display on the PowerCab won't show the transient spike of the short through the DCC80 before it trips.  The meter won't be fast enough to show it.   The relay clicking isn't the power draw, it is the short going through the circuit before the relay activates which is the high current.  

  

 

- Nigel

 

[BWsTrains]

12 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

I think you've done the "wrong" test...     You've so far showed that the DCC80 doesn't draw enough power on its own to trip the NCE PowerCab.    (Or DCC80 plus a very low current draw loco).  

 

A better test might be to run a realistically maximum load loco on the track, and see if that loco plus the DCC80 causes problems.   So, worst power consumption loco you own, at low speed trying to accelerate the heaviest train likely to be run on the layout.  

 

The digital current display on the PowerCab won't show the transient spike of the short through the DCC80 before it trips.  The meter won't be fast enough to show it.   The relay clicking isn't the power draw, it is the short going through the circuit before the relay activates which is the high current.  

  

 

- Nigel

 

 

Two  Three issues here in the reply but first I note the DCC80 specs quote a typical current of 20mA; might be the straw which broke the camel's back but if so the camel was overworked already.

 

1) does the DCC 80 draw an instantaneous spike in current and can it be detected?

 

Answer, to protect my NCE I have a device (reported elsewhere here) which will pick up any harmful momentary trip before it occurs and resets the Powercab. The lamp lights and an alarm rings at about 650mA; it totally prevents any trip internally in the NCE.

 

When I was getting momentary shorts on a crossing which lit the lamp, I videoed the NCE display. The momentary current excursion is shown on screen as I caught it on video but too fast for the naked eye, so you're wrong, the display works. Its only limitation is our ability to see it.

 

BTW I'd strongly recommend that anyone using a Powercab uses some form of short protection as recommended by the manufacturer.

 

2) Is it an issue of total load?

 

Answer: Possibly, but the NCE has its limitations and if someone runs near the specified limit it seems to me unreasonable to fault an additional tiny device which then can't get the momentary power it needs. See opening remarks.

There seem to be different views as to the safe acceptable load on a Powercab, as noted I chose to limit mine to 650mA with my device, based on needs and the NCE specifications I'd been given.

 

3) On separating the noise of the short from the switching.

 

Implausible. When a loco hits the frog there's not even a momentary stutter in motion, the short/ switch action must be near instantaneous. After all the device has to beat the NCE to the punch regarding tripping and in my experience the NCE trips exceedingly rapidly. Hence the need to protect it from multiple resets in rapid succession.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by BWsTrains
typo / addition

[Waddy7]

On 01/02/2022 at 08:03, BWsTrains said:

 

This quote caught my attention because an experienced colleague has recommended the DCC80 for my DCC Electrofrog switching and I've a NCE Power Cab.

 

Hence I conducted  a simple test as the NCE provides a current meter option.

 

I wired the DCC80 across my frog using the test track output of my layout, current draw 0mA with no loco in place.

Placed my test loco, a Hornby 2021 vintage Terrier on the turnout and let it run. The loco was drawing just a few mA and as it crossed the frog (preset with adverse polarity) you could hear a tiny "click" as the relay tripped and the loco sailed through without a stutter. Barely a ripple in the reported current and from the minimal sound of the relay very little would be needed.

 

None of this bears any resemblance to the cited "issues" of the earlier post but as I'm moving forward, it appears the current product should work without problems under a normal current load through the NCE, viz the DCC80 will not add materially to current flow

 

We have had "issues" with some Autofrogs working properly and some causing stuttering, and have discovered that just a few unwanted ohms in the wires from the DCC source to the track can cause the relays not to switch at all. 

 

I removed one device from the layout and found that adding a few extra test leads  (~ 0.5ohms each when measured on a multimeter)  between the track and the autofrog confirmed the problem - from instant switching with one lead on each connection; to sometimes switching - sometimes not; to not switching at all.  So the test you did showed it will work, but underlines what Phil S said earlier about a GOOD BUS connection to the track and from frog to autofrog is essential, and maybe a slightly poor connection is what has caused the problem for those who have had difficulty.  (BTW with the poor bus connection the trains still ran ok until stuttering on the points)

 

- Stephen

[BWsTrains]

3 hours ago, Waddy7 said:

have discovered that just a few unwanted ohms in the wires from the DCC source to the track can cause the relays not to switch at all. .......

 

I removed one device from the layout and found that adding a few extra test leads  (~ 0.5ohms each when measured on a multimeter)  between the track and the autofrog confirmed the problem - from instant switching with one lead on each connection; to sometimes switching - sometimes not; to not switching at all.  So the test you did showed it will work, but underlines what Phil S said earlier about a GOOD BUS connection to the track and from frog to autofrog is essential,

 

I'm sorry but your experiment and conclusions have flaws. Your average hobby mulitmeter cannot read low resistances as accurately as you quote and hence you cannot add them either.

 

The best way to judge the resistance of leads is from the quoted resistivity data for the wire in question. For example as quoted here:

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-wire-d_1429.html

 

From this table AWG 22 solid wire has a resistivity of only ~0.05 Ohm per metre and even a single 28 gauge with diameter 0.33mm is only 0.2 Ohm per metre. While these are not stranded wire cable the difference between the two is not enormous. Stranded cable of the same resistivity has a slightly larger diameter than solid.

 

What I would agree is that good connectivity is essential but suggest that the lead resistance itself is unlikely to be the source of any problems. A resistance of a fraction of an ohm is unlikely to be an issue.