two tone green Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 Watch these and listen to all the points firing as well as the trains running. RR&Co of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted October 22, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thanks TTG Just setting out on my trust bike, make coffee for about four months. Seem to have a sinking feeling at the moment on my bike and my feet are wet. Lands end, just past it. I have news for you bikes are not allowed on Highway 1 As for posting in a separate thread, it would keep this thread more concise and would flow a little better. Will do......I tend to agree with you but thought I should check anyway But, do you work in off line mode, do you have all blocks visible all the time or only when occupied. This is the basis for the argument for what you have done and what I have done. As I said, what you have done is perfectly correct but there are limitations if you have selected to have blocks invisible except for when occupied and in edit mode and you want to test things in off line mode. If for example you have a laptop and take it to work as I do and the laptop has RR&Co on it. You can run it in off line mode and play with your files. When you come to test your signalling systems, points, routes and interlocking, you will need to trigger the block occupancy detectors to see what happens. If the blocks are invisible as in your case with the block occupancy detector embedded in the block and not as a separate item on the track as one of the black dots, you cannot trigger the block to its occupied state by clicking on the black dot. Have you got into signalling yet as it impacts this as well. I would like to save this for later when I get to doing signals and the options setting things up though. The blocks are visible all the time on the switchboard and despatcher and they change colour when occupied. Right now I just use the RR&Co signals that are generated by running schedules. When I get round to physically installing signals (I think they will have to be semaphore.....I dont think they had lights on secondary lines in 1947!) I fear they will only be cosmetic As for the second bit, yes, very much so. It does impact release of blocks by the time set in the memory function. Thanks for the heads up......I will proceed with caution Kind Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulYMRG Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK so I too have ambitions to set up full computer control and have looked at RR&Co when first buying ZTC units several years ogo. That aside I have managed to use extensive route control but thus far feel that the general interface of current DCC control units is primative (like using a PC in DOS mode!) and that we all need far more useability. I am an IT person and run my own Internet services company but feel that the usability of some the software takes a technically minded person like me to understand. Would not the industry benefit from a somple to use system that is self contained such as a touch screen where you can build simple mimics but also complex ones if you are so inclined? Does RR&Co support touch screen tecnology? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 27, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2009 Does RR&Co support touch screen tecnology? Touch screen is a function of the OS and screen drivers - we have considered it so that our panels are even closer to the real thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Quite right Dave. I would have thought Mr ZTC would have known that being in IT ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Thanks for the very interesting postings on computer control. It great to read and understand the basics of how RR & Co works. I have considered computer control for my own layout but find a succession of family events have now put me way behind in the construction programme. At this point the choice is to stay with computer control but considerably simplify the track plan or vice versa. At present I am veering towards the latter, so may wish to sell around 50 Lenz LB101 block detectors. All are as new. Apologies for posting in your thread, but if anyone is interested in going down this route please pm me. They currently sell at ??15 each. Would sell at ??10 per module plus postage. I also have the various Lenz interface modules as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Hi Gordon, Good luck with your new plans. Let us all know what you are doing and how you get on. Help is only a mouse click away. Keep in Touch. TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I do not (yet) have RR&Co (Gold!) and am trying to get to grips with detectors and stuff. I have two main things that I am concerned about. First, I want to run with 'momentary track sensors' not anything based on current draw as I have most track complete and I don't want to interfere with the existing wiring. (I am planning to use the DCCConcepts 'Ultimate Detector' units together with LDT RS16s for feedback.) I can generally follow the (RR&Co) manual but find the explanations by TTG above to be an extremely valuable extension to help clear up many matters. However, how does a block currently in use know that is now unoccupied? Is it when the 'stop' indicator is passed (either immediately or after a specified time)? This seems unlikely as there may be quite a distance to the next block. This leads on to my other current query. Given many points in close succession, the 'next block' for a block could be any one of many blocks. So unless a particular given route is being followed, how does one protect the layout integrity as far as the points are concerned. I guess things could be easier with block occupancy detection but I am trying to imagine a passing contact (which could stay on for several seconds to avoid 'flicker') and whether I need a further passing contact right at the end of a block so that the software can be told that the block has been cleared. With a schedule on a fixed route then OK; the 'next block' is always defined and entry to that block can lead to clearing the previous block. But this is a special case, I think. Sorry about the queries - the manual probably says it all but some things just seem very simple in theory and difficult to get at in practice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hello Alan, First off, thanks for the compliment on my efforts to help those interested in using RR&Co. Things have gone a bit slow in adding to it due to the upgrade of the forum and me being off work with a nasty bug which has slowed me down considerably. So apologies for not doing much recently. As for your enquiry, you have picked on one aspect of RR&Co I have little experience of because I don't use contact indicators, momentary types like reed switches etc. They do have distinct drawbacks in trying to get the maximum use out of RR&Co for many reasons. Basically it requires the train to be moving for the contact type of feed back sensors to be of any use. So as soon as a train stops the software really looses track of things and can be the cause of some major accidents. Also a problem arises when a train exits a block from the direction it entered it. But things can be improved by using some of the clever bits of RR&Co I think from reading your mail you are still a little unsure about one or two things. You mention the stop indicator releasing a block and showing it as not occupied. Do you mean when a train passes the block without stopping or when the train stops in the block. If it is when the train stops in the block you definitely want the block to show occupied otherwise another train may reserve the block and try to enter it. There are many ways to fix this by use of multiple contact indicators as detailed in the manual. But one way is to use flagman triggered by the contact indicators and using the flagman as the block occupancy trigger. If you have a entry contact indicator and an exit indicator that turns on and off flagman indicators, then these can be used to show a block occupied even when the train is not moving. Warning, RR&CO has a bit of a problem with flagman in that it is best to use two flagman to turn some thing on and off. One to turn it on and one to turn it off. Reason being the trigger function has a problem changing the state of the flagman when the trigger conditions don't exist any more. Can you read up on flagman and get back to me and then I can explain more to you as I could spend ages doing this and flagman form part of my automation exercise on here. As for the point work bit, you have found another problem with contact indicators and this really does get complicated and involves lots of flagman to solve it. So you do need to understand how flagman work and what they can do, which is lots. But as in my answer to some one else about point work, the answer is continuous track circuiting but in your case it is even more complicated because of the type of feed back sensor you have chosen to use, momentary type, like reeds etc. Can you send me your .yrr files so I can have a look at your layout. I can then understand the complexity you face. PM me and I will reply with my e mail address so you can send the file. Regards TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hi TTG Thanks for your comments, again! The trype of momentary contact indicator I aim to use can be in one of four states: momentary, on for 10 seconds, on until next contact on board is indicated or on until any contact on board is indicated. This latter could give me a solution to block release but could be expensive in multiple boards (i.e. a separate board needed each time more than one route diversion is possible). As far as the stop indicator is concerned, I simply meant to ask whether one could be used to release a block when it has been passed - perhaps after a set time; I guess, though, that this is hardly a safe way to do things as there could be confusion of the kind you mention. I have looked, briefly, at flagmen when going through the manual but will now have a detailed look to see how I might do what I want to do; and thanks for the warning! I will get back in due course about this; it should help to clear up both of my queries, it seems. Thanks for your offer of looking at my .yrr files but I do not have the software yet; all that is to come. I am just trying to reassure myself that I can do what I want to do before jumping in... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hi Alan, You can download and try the software for free. Draw your track plan and then send it to me. It costs nothing to play at first so worth a go if nothing else. TTG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 One other thing, are you really, REALLY sure you want to go down the momentary contact route ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hi TTG Hmmm; I was also getting to the point of wondering about getting the software and having a go. What is it, 15-20 minutes before you need to shut down and load again? And presumably you need to save before the system shuts down? As for the contact indicators, I have read about flagmen and can see how two contacts (one each end of a block) can kind of mimic block occupancy - quite neat really. But I haven't managed to apply ant such logic to 'sets of points' yet. As for real block occupancy, well, I am going back to my LR101 and LB101 manuals to look at what it would mean and also check prices! But I think it is almost bound to be more costly than going by the LDT RS16 route.... More to follow....may take a while... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 OK, it will be somewhat longer for a reply.....a quick check makes the Lenz solution some 30 per cent more expensive than the one I was going with. Maybe the benefits outweigh these extra costs though..... I could also use an LR101 with a RS16 unit which would save a bit... So I need to think about it all and get my head around the implications; I don't like the idea of cutting the track that is already laid but can see the benefits.... So...anon... Thanks again for your help Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digital Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hi Guys, I use Railroad and Co on my small "O" Gauge layout Willaston Road. I have occupancy detection fitted and use the LDT RS8 feedback modules connected to my Lenz system. AS TTG says Railroad & Co is superb and in my opion is the ultimate in Computer train control. I can run trains fully automatically driving trains setting routes signals etc, part automatic with the computer driving some trains and manual operation of others or manual control with the computer setting routes and signals. Really is excellent. Currently wiring in some semaphore signals to be controlled by the computer or manual operation. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Alan, Have a look at LDT RS8's as these are all the Lenz bits on one board and a lot cheaper. I use them on my layout with no problems at all. A lot of others have found them to be very good. You may, like some others have found problems with the RS16, LB101 combination. It does work but can be a pain to set up at times. Digital, good luck with the signals. Sounds like you have mastered things already. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Digital Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Alan, Have a look at LDT RS8's as these are all the Lenz bits on one board and a lot cheaper. I use them on my layout with no problems at all. A lot of others have found them to be very good. You may, like some others have found problems with the RS16, LB101 combination. It does work but can be a pain to set up at times. Digital, good luck with the signals. Sounds like you have mastered things already. I have had no problem with the LDT RS8 and can fully recommend them. As TTG has said cost works out cheaper. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 6, 2009 Author Share Posted November 6, 2009 Alan, As for points, it can be done using flagman that are triggered by the exit contact indicator and setting conditions in the dialogue box of the flagman that includes the route it controls. It could be a complex affair with lots of flagman depending on the number of points in a route and the number of routes. I use flagman to control my signals, its left over from the old days before the signal logic used today, but works the same and allows instant debugging when setting things up. More later on this as part of my automation exercise on here though. Have a play with the software and see what can be done. Until you can play it become difficult for me to explain things properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted November 6, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 6, 2009 Hi TTG Hmmm; I was also getting to the point of wondering about getting the software and having a go. What is it, 15-20 minutes before you need to shut down and load again? And presumably you need to save before the system shuts down? Hi Alan I would strongly recommend downloading the software....trying to evaluate the system with just the manual is a bit difficult.......you may want to come to a decision about Silver or Gold and download the version you intend to eventually purchase The time limit only kicks in if you are actually connected to the layout. Off line you can do whatever you like without any time constraints........there is a simulation tool (which I have not used) where you can mimic and test the progress of a route. The RR&Co Software Forum is a very useful resource although Herr Freiwald sometimes reminds me of my more draconian School Masters There is a thread there which explains the delay limitations in detail I agree with TTG about preferring Occupancy detectors to Contact. I use LB 101s and am very happy with them................you only need one per block because of the power and accuracy of RR&Co as opposed to 2/3 Contact Indicators.........I dont know to what extent that affects the costing but I would have thought changing the power feeds (you dont need to touch the common) to lead them to LB 101s (or similar) is not much more arduous than wiring in the contact indicators. Wishing you the best of luck whatever your choice. You will find, like me, that the guys on this forum are super helpful Regards from a very damp Vancouver Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangr Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Well, guys, thanks for all this. I now have the Gold software and as soon as I have done here I will get going. It is good to know that the time limit only kicks in with a connection to the layout so I can go on for some time and at least get in the basic track layout. Then I can follow up with TTG and the 'run of points' stuff - thanks for the recent comments on the flagman, TTG, these guys sound really useful especially as flagmen can form part of the conditions for further flagmen. Thanks all for the comments on the RS8s; I had thought that the bigger brother would work out cheaper in the end but I clearly need to do some more investigation here. Yes, John, the more I think about TTG's advice and read the manual again (and again) the more occupancy detection really does look better. And, as you say, only a cut and connections in one wire.... as well as the rail break, of course. But I do agree with you about both forums. RMweb is very useful on many fronts but I find that some of the RR&Co discussions pretty detailed - as of yet, anyway. I guess Herr Friewald needs to keep his responses short and sharp otherwise he would set himself up for a perpetual answering on the forum. I always thought the weather was good in Greece but right now it seems as wet as good old Blighty (or Canada). Still, we did eat outdoors last night (in Athens). However, I seem to have usurped TTGs thread with my queries (which was very far from my intention) so when I get going I will pick all this up by starting a new thread. Thanks again to you all - I am sure it won't be the last call! Regards (yes, from a damp Greece). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 I keep meaning to add to this but events seem to prevent me. Distractions really and a rather more than normal amount of titanium in my mouth has stopped a lot of playing and typing. But will get around to it soon, sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach james Posted December 11, 2009 Share Posted December 11, 2009 The blocks are visible all the time on the switchboard and despatcher and they change colour when occupied. Right now I just use the RR&Co signals that are generated by running schedules. When I get round to physically installing signals (I think they will have to be semaphore.....I dont think they had lights on secondary lines in 1947!) I fear they will only be cosmetic Kind Regards Why not Ratio signals, with Torti or other Signal Operator Units installed under them? I find I need ~3x3 of space to mount them on a piece of 1/8" Baltic Ply, with the torti pulling the rope for the signal. They may not be wonderfully accurate, but they far beat static signals & are fairly reliable & fast to set up. That makes fabrication and adjustment a bench job, rather than a on layout one. The original plan for Long Marton was going to be to use electrically restrained signal levers, electronically interlocked, then I found out about MODUTRAC's signalbox stuff. I am aware of the limits of what I have, (I built it 4 years ago, and it does not have conditional locking), but it feels right for operating the signaling. At some point I am building a model, not working a real line. I've just come onto a bit of a easier doodle for mounting the Torti for driving Peco points from underneath- since I have ~4-16" of styrofoam to drive through, I am using wire in tube to bring it under the layout, then a contraption made up from Tamiya educational kits to rotate them. (It's like a 3mm hole/5mm spaced version of Meccano, and was cheap in Japan, at $3/package, which did 2 turnouts). I will try and remember to take some photos- I have a little status update on the go for December, but I haven't posted it to my web page yet. (there were no changes in November, since I spent the month at sea) James Powell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 11, 2009 Author Share Posted December 11, 2009 Before going over to colour light signalling, I used Ratio signals on part of my layout that were operated by the Peco PL12 motor base with a Peco point motor on it. The sliding arm on the motor base would push on the little operating lever in the base of the signal and move the signal arm. Then when the motor fired in the opposite direction the signal returned to its default state by action of the spring built into the signal. Worked well but it moved very quickly. The travel of the sliding arm on the PL12 is just right to give the correct travel on the signal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted December 11, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2009 Gee thanks guys..............thats all I need when I thought I had dreamed up a satisfactory excuse for static signals I am just about to post on my layout thread asking how to signal the branch......(statically!) Its probably very tricky to get under the baseboards but I am beginning to think I had better plan to do at least some when I start on the terminus in the New Year. Seriously thanks for the suggestions....I probably need a bit of subtle pressure Kind Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 You cannot go to all the trouble of full automation using RR&Co and not have operating signals Its just not right. Just got back from Amsterdam and have wait another week before I get home to play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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