RR&Co, my control panel & the basics of automation

[alangr]

Thanks TTG; I guessed that would be what you would say and can see the reasons why.

 

I have yet to try resistors and choose a value to use but I see that people use anything from 10K or lower to 47K. Trial and error with the RS8s will tell but what will work best for me but what value resistor would you suggest? Something in the 10-15K range?

 

Alan

[two tone green]

I have 1K on mine with LDT RS8's which gives a very positive occupied. Not had any problems with it and will possibly use similar with my new O gauge stock if they don't have lights etc in them.

 

Don't forget to set the reset from automatic to about 2 seconds on your occupancy, track circuiting to overcome wheel bounce causing flicker of the occupancy detector in RR&Co.

[Hiddle]

Hi Andy

 

Can you explain in simple terms a bit more about track circuiting? What does it achieve, how does it do it, and how do you set it up?

 

I understand from your post that for example in route A< >B I insert a contact indicator, but as Block A has one and Block B has one, there are two in the route, which do you use?

 

As for the signalling, it uses the same detectors I have just talked about. So they have a dual use. Again when routes are long, that is track work not contained with in a block, it an take a while for a train passing a signal at the end of a block to change if it relies on the signal being triggered by the next block that has a detector in it. So your signal logic that control the signals is triggered by the route track circuiting as well as the block occupancy detector in advance of the block. This means the signal changes almost as soon as the train passes the signal.

 

 

How do you tell the sotware to do this? I have worked out how to change a signal to red if a block is occupied using a flagman. All my blocks connect directly to each other, so presumably this an additional set of instructions? Getting there slowly, but if you decide to continue the thread some guidance on routes and scheduling wouldn't go amiss as far as I am concerned.

[john dew]

I tend to think this is TTGs thread but as I am one of his student apprentices here is my initial response......I am sure TTG will correct/amplify it

 

You need at least one contact indicator (occupancy detector) dedicated to each block.......the occupancy detector tells TC precisely when a train enters the block......to trigger occupancy and brake and stop markers (if required) .

 

If you put a loco in Block A it will colour (Red?) and then if you tell TC that Loco 1 is in Block A [Assign the train] the locos icon will appear in Block A. Now drive Loco 1 out of Block A towards Block B when TC receives an indication that Block A is no longer occupied and Block B is now occupied it deduces that Block B is occupied by Loco 1 and its icon will now appear in Block B...............this is one of the cornerstones of RR&Co ...........it is important to recognise it is train deduction rather than train detection

 

To start a schedule you must specify a start block and, simplistically, if there isnt a train assigned to the start block (and detected by TC ie by contact indicator) nothing will happen.............if the finish block doesnt have a contact indicator then TC will not know when to stop the train.........ergo, to run schedules you must have a contact indicator in each block of that schedule

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards from Vancouver

[alangr]

First let me apologise to TTG for missing his reply to my query about typical wheelset resistances; thanks for that. In the event, I tried several values in practice and have ended up using 10K as this was well below the cut-off level for the RS8 detection. Not installed yet but ready to do so soon.

 

As for the comment on track circuiting, I think John (Dew) has set the record out straight. All I would add is that using a schedule (usually) refers to a route and a route is 'only' a set of connected blocks. Without detectors in those blocks TC will not know the location of a train running on that schedule is at any moment.

 

Have fun!

[two tone green]

Hi all, can I have a go?

 

If you think of your track being split into two types, the track in blocks and the track that joins the blocks together. Usually and the convention preferred is that your blocks have plain track in them, curves and straights. The other track not in your blocks points, curves and straights usually form routes, the sections of track joining the blocks together.

 

So if you have Block A and Block B, the track in between is a route. It may be made up of curves, straights or point work.

 

Even if you have two blocks next to each other, in theory you have a route between them as you need to join them together to get from one block to the next. Physically and electrically there may be no track there but there is a route but this is theoretical stuff.

 

So every block needs some way of determining if there is something on the track in that block, yes? So you have some form of detector, lets call it a block occupancy detector. It can be a current sensing type where it sees a loco drawing current into the decoder or physical switch set off by the train entering and leaving the block, usually reed switches operated by magnets on the loco.

 

The preferred and best way is the current sensing type for many many reasons.

 

I'll only deal with current sensing types as it is the best and only way for me.

 

In RR&Co they call any detection method 'contact indicators', you seem to have grasped this. As the others have said, you need at least one per block. Without at least one per block, the software would not know what was happening on the layout, if any of the blocks that make up the layout were occupied.

 

Now, this is where things split up a bit. You have your block occupancy detection but what happens if you have long sections of track between the blocks, perhaps long enough to have a complete train in it. Complex point work with multiple routes going through it that can have more than one train going through it at one. How does the software know what is going on in there. How do you stop the software from changing points under trains, releasing routes for other trains to use the route or another route suing the same point work or track.

 

Simple, use track circuiting. Use exactly the same detectors, current sensing but allocate the detector to the route. Then if anything is on the track that makes up the route, the software knows its occupied and not to do anything to it. Lock it to protect it.

 

Detectors allocated to blocks can only be allocated once. Detectors in routes can be allocated as many times as needed as one detector can be in many routes as its may be in point work and that point work could be used in a routes from say A to B, A to C, A to D and so on. Yes no?

 

So using current sensing detects requires a current to be drawn for it to work. A loco naturally draws current due to the decoder and motor, lights etc being in it. A coach or wagon with lights will draw current due to the lights but as Alan mentions above, a coach, wagon, other item of rolling stock not fitted with lights or any electrical devise in it will not draw current so you need to add something to make it seem as if it has. This is done by adding a resistor across the wheels.

 

A wagon can have one resistor but longer items of stock its best to have two, one at each end and as near to the front and back as possible so that when the wheels clear a block or track circuited section of track there is as little overhang as possible into the section of track it has just left.

 

But you don't always need contact indicators for routes. It can be over kill in some cases. If your only getting going, don't worry too much about adding indicators to routes, just blocks as this is the basis for automatic operation. You can easily go back and add indicators to routes later if you think you need them.

 

As for the signalling part, if you do use block occupancy and track circuiting, both can be used to trigger signals to change aspect. Use either or both depending upon the situation and complexity of the track work, routes the signal is controlling access to.

 

As John has said, you need a start block and destination for a schedule to run. If after creating a schedule, look at the blocks on the computer screen and does the block in which the train you want to use in the schedule is currently standing have coloured ends to it. Not the little signal symbol at the end of the blocks but small rectangles. You should see a green end to the block at the end that the train is to leave from. Similar for the block that the train will arrive in at the end of the schedule. But this time it should be red or orange.

 

If not, in edit mode, right click the block on the dispatcher screen on the schedules display that is the start block and then click start/destination and you will see arrows with green tips and rectangles with orange tips. Click the arrow with a green tip on that represents the direction of travel of the train that the train will leave the block.

 

Similar for the destination block, right click and select now a rectangle that represents the destination block. I think of this as looking at a set of buffers at the end of a track and the train will run up to them. So if the train is running from left to right then you need the rectangle with the orange shape at the right of the rectangle as the train runs up to the buffers at the end of the track at the right hand end.

 

 

If then you have selected all the parts of the schedule and have a train in the start block and the routes, blocks are all clear in between then the schedule should run. Should being the big word. There are a few things that you need to watch out for that will stop a schedule from running but with care you should be ok.

 

Don't be too ambitious to start with when you set up your first schedule. Simple is the watch word to get you going and then build things up as you gain confidence and understand what is going on in front of you and with the software.

 

Have fun.

 

TTG

[two tone green]

Hi John,

 

Good to hear from you. How is life in the colonies. Its warming up over here in the home land and Wales are just about beating Italy in the rugby.

 

Alan, good you have your resistor wheel sets sorted out. Nice to hear from you again, its been a while.

 

Regards

 

TTG

[Hiddle]

Thanks for your advice John, and your comprehensive reply TTG - much appreciated.

 

I am able to set up blocks, link them to contact indicators and - after much experimentation - get the signals to do what I want them to do using flagmen. So far, so good.

 

Whilst you have suggested that track circuiting could be added later, I might as well get it right first time. So back to my question about adding contact indicators, using the following as an example.

 

A Route contains block A and block B, both linked to contact indicators, with a point between them. I now have two contact indicators in the route, do I add them both? Your instructions clearly state "add the contact indicator in the route"? ie singular. I guess the answer is the obvious one, but I don't want to get it wrong!

 

If the point is then protected by a signal to stop a train going from A to B running into it if set against, which contact indicator do I add? Similarly, if the signal indicates block B is occupied? Oh - and is it a trigger or a condition?

 

Regarding routes - again I understand the principles now, but I need a lot more practise. To my simple mind, when you set up a schedule it would be much clearer if the Dispatcher just showed a list of the routes in that schedule, but it shows everything on the layout in the list - unless I am missing something? I know you can see it on the block diagram anyway, but ................

 

Thanks again for your patience with an RR&Co beginner.

[two tone green]

Get away from saying a route contains blocks. Use the terms routes and the term blocks, separate the two, treat them as separate items.

 

A route joins blocks together.

 

So you need contact indicators for routes and blocks. So one per block and one per route but don't use the same contact indicators for both.

 

Block A.........Route............Block B How many contact indicators are needed for this simple arrangement?

 

Answer now.......

[Hiddle]

Er - one,Sir?

[Hiddle]

OK - it is three - one per block and one for the route - misread your question. Dunce!

[two tone green]

Correct.

 

So how many do you need for your arrangement?

[two tone green]

You can see the routes in a schedule by selecting the routes in schedule tab on the dispatcher screen. Same for blocks in schedule. It shows the routes or blocks in a schedule highlighted in the list of all available routes or blocks.

 

On the dispatcher screen that shows the track layout, as you click on a route it is highlighted on the track so you can see what blocks it links.

 

What version of RR&Co are you using?

 

As for your signalling question, the trigger for a red aspect would be the point set the wrong way or if you have track circuiting and it shows occupied or the block beyond the point is occupied.

 

Notice the use of the word 'or' in the above sentence. It basically means that if any one of the above situations occurred, it forces the signal to red.

 

So if you wanted the same signal to show green, what would would the above sentence look like.

 

As for triggers and conditions, forget conditions until you have mastered what triggers do. Its easy to go back and add them later. Tip,if you do set conditions at the same time, you can make debugging your signalling logic very difficult. Build it up in levels and test to satisfactory operation before going to the next level of protection.

[Hiddle]

Thanks for that - had to do some gardening, but it is raining now so off the hook!

 

I am using Silver - but beginning to think maybe I should go for Gold, so I am on the same page as most other folk on here.

 

Yes, I can now see that the icons highlight in the dispatcher for a given schedule.

 

Back to the plot:

 

I have created another contact indicator between two blocks and linked this to the relevant occupancy sensor. Then, using one flagman for each, I have a signal which goes red if the route is occupied, the block is occupied or the point is set against. Maybe a bit clumsy using 3 flagmen, but it didn't seem to work with the "or" function.

 

Thanks again for your guidance Andy, I feel I have grasped a bit more how RR&Co works. As you will have realised I need spoonfeeding, as I don't seem to have a logical brain!!

 

Incidentally, the good news is that since receiving a replacement unit, LDT is working perfectly, so that episode is well behind me.

[two tone green]

Not sure the level you need with RR&Co but I would suggest not rushing out to buy gold unless you really need it. But Gold is much better than silver for many reasons.

 

The or function should work, stick with it other wise you will end up with a lot of flagman and find it difficult to keep track of them.

 

So what about the green aspect as I asked above. What triggers are needed for green?

 

Good news about the LDT problem. I have not once had problems with any of their gear and I have a lot of it.

[Hiddle]

I assume you get a green aspect if the point is set the right way and both the block and the route are not occupied?

[two tone green]

That's right. All the conditions for the signal to go to green have to be applied all together, hence the 'and' function rather than the 'or' function.

 

Your almost there.

[Hiddle]

Thanks for your help - a lot of mist has been lifted today, and I feel much more confident with RR&Co now. Let's hope one or two others gained from our exchanges as well.

[john dew]

Hi John,

 

Good to hear from you. How is life in the colonies. Its warming up over here in the home land and Wales are just about beating Italy in the rugby.

 

Alan, good you have your resistor wheel sets sorted out. Nice to hear from you again, its been a while.

 

Regards

 

TTG

 

Hi TTG

 

Thanks for the good wishes......I always enjoy reading your posts. The layout is slowly progressing......too much building and not enough playing with TC Currently struggling with an elderly Fleischmann TT

 

It is unusually cold in the Pacific North West and right now we have 6"+ of snow!

 

Also good to hear from you Alan.....I have read a couple of your threads on thr RR&Co Forum......how is Athens......doesnt sound great right now?

 

Kind Regards from Vancouver

[two tone green]

Hi John

 

I had great success with my Fleischmann turntable by using their turn control interfaced with RR&Co which directly supports it. Once set up it becomes fully automatic and a joy to watch working as things shuttle around the depot.

 

The biggest change at my side of the pond is a move from 4mm to 7mm with my layout gone and a new one being built.

 

Hopefully no snow from now on for us, summer is only a few hours away

 

Regards

 

Andy Jack

[alangr]

Hi TTG, John

 

Yes, it has been a while as I have spent quite some time struggling with automating a Heljan turntable. It was an early beast (i.e. not one of the new digital ones) and I was struggling for some time. However, as you may have seen John, there were some examples to follow in the RR&Co forum and, after much faffing around and blue air, as well as twelve reeds/magnets all wired in to some LDT RS16s, all is now well. And it is truly amazing (a joy to watch as Andy says) to see a loco approach the turntable, which may be set ready or moving to accommodate the loco, and then be turned as necessary and put on shed. Sorry to go on about this but it really does look good. (Of course, there are times when things go wrong and the loco has to be grabbed before diving into the pit....)

 

I think I have now just about finished track laying. But reading Andy's comments about route sensors, I realise that there could still be much implementation to come! I am not going to rush into that, particularly as many of my blocks are quite short, but it is there!

 

As for here, well, the weather is cold (I know, 5/6/7 degrees is hardly cold to some!) but two weeks ago we had lunch outside by the sea. As you infer, though, the general state of things is not good. It seems almost certain that things will get worse before they get better but to a Brit, some of the goings on here (i.e. things that have been done for a generation or more) are little short of crazy!

 

Anyway, enough of that. Algrove, my layout, is now getting fascia panels and probably Control Panels for the 'auxilliary' things that run (I have two separate NG systems that are not on TC as well as a tram system using TC).

 

Regards from a great country in a confused state

 

Alan

[melmerby]

Another question for TTG or anybody else who can answer.

 

Following on from an earlier question about detectors through pointwork, how would I arrange detection with the following arrangement?:

 

All pointwork is isolated from surrounding tracks with insulators on all rails.

detection using RS8s.

 

Thanks

 

Keith

[two tone green]

Easy, one detector per track, four in all.

 

If the crossings had been double slips then the number goes up due to the number of extra routes through all the point work and possible combinations of routes.

[two tone green]

The only down side to having one detector per track is that when the route is occupied it will show the whole track as occupied, the track will change colour on the diagram and if you have a long train that can straddle three tracks, all three lines will show occupied which in some ways looks strange as it does not actually represent the path of the train, just that the track is being used, occupied.

[RFS]

Are you suggesting that you need separate detectors for pointwork? I've not done that on mine as RR&Co sees the route through the pointwork by the way the points are set. What I have done though is provide power to the pointwork via spare RS8 ports, rather than directly from the bus, so there's no problem of false detection (or non-detection) when loco wheels straddle the IRJs. And I define all double-slips to RR&Co as two separate points: much easier to see what's going on than with the slip symbol.