Painted myself into a corner?

[Philou]

@Harlequin Phil, hello,

 

Thanks for the information regarding the size of the red glass - it was a question I raised in an earlier post - so thanks for that. As my cutting is not THAT accurate, I'm going to have to go with glazing at the back and file back as I showed in the photos. If my painting skills don't improve too much, I reckon heavy weathering WILL be the order of the day . Thank you for the colour detail of the boss plate - I had found some nice colour photos of various GWR signals but it was one detail that I failed completely to note - another reason therefore to redo the first effort - but I shall try out different paint thicknesses on the next set of signals first!  There are only another 13 to go!!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Philou]

@Harlequin It's me again!

 

Phil, I had a look back at my source, in this case signalbox.org, and the signal that I painted yesterday is correct - the spectacle metalwork (the boss plate) is painted black. However, it isn't always the case! It seems to depend a little where you look and as to whether the arm was wood or metal. The photographic evidence is variable to say the least.

 

I shall change the paintwork a little from signal to signal just for variety.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Stationmaster]

20 minutes ago, Philou said:

@Harlequin It's me again!

 

Phil, I had a look back at my source, in this case signalbox.org, and the signal that I painted yesterday is correct - the spectacle metalwork (the boss plate) is painted black. However, it isn't always the case! It seems to depend a little where you look and as to whether the arm was wood or metal. The photographic evidence is variable to say the least.

 

I shall change the paintwork a little from signal to signal just for variety.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Red (or later yellow on distant signals) was the original colour scheme but it appears to have changed at some time.  Certainly where enamelled steel arms were fitted as replacements black was used instead.   But equally black was definitely in use with original timber arms during the BR period although I don't know how far back in time the use of black went.    Also I suspect there might have been some difference between the signal painting gangs although they were basically HQ based and simply moved round the network in their base which consisted of various older items of coaching stock until more localised painting by either new works or local gang people took over in, I think, the later part of the 1960s.  The painters' train would be a very interesting subject to model but photos of it are rare to say the very least.

[Harlequin]

Yes indeed. Lots of variation is possible but I guess that further back in time things were more consistent. Bear in mind the date when the source photo was taken and the period you are modelling, which may be different.

 

Just to clarify, my primary source (GWR Signalling practice, reproducing a 1907 GWR Painting Instructions document) says that the boss plate and the ball of the finial should be red and all other iron fittings, including the spectacle frame, should be black. And allowing for trying to assess colours from B&W photographs, I'm pretty sure I can see that pattern in many of the photos in the book - including one dated 1950 (Plate 12, Page 31).

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Harlequin

[Philou]

Ah well, I only had photos to go by - and as they're in colour I expect things have changed over the years. As I said above, I shall vary the paintwork and I shall be right some of the time .

 

Thanks to the two of you for the information.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

After a day in the 'death' room, I set out late this afternoon on another signal arm. This time I thought I would change my painting techniques - so here goes.

 

The arm chosen was a Distant one with smaller circular lenses that made my life easier as I have a multi-headed leather punch and cutting circles in the gel was far simpler. Using the 3.5mm punch I cut out two lenses, one green and one orange/amber, though in my mind when cut out and placed in the upper orifice, the orange seemed awfully pale, but then the lens is only about 2mm or so in diameter.

 

I found in my bitsa box a tube of gusso that is said to be a surface primer for acrylics. This was applied neat from the tube by brush and it did leave a smooth finish on the plastic of the arm. Good start. A thinnish coat of yellow was applied to the front face and white behind. These were allowed to dry and a second yellow coat applied again by brush that was a disaster as it dissolved the first coat. Pants!

 

I remembered that I had a bottle of acrylic thinners somewhere and after a rummage I found it. This I used instead of water and I must say the new thin coat of yellow went on smoothly as did the white. I repeated the exercise to build up the coats until I was happy with the depth of colour. In this instance, excluding the gusso, three coats were applied.

 

Applying the black around the spectacle was not problematic, but the chevron was not to my liking as the engraved guides on the plastic were not easily discernable at this stage and I'm not happy with them. The root cause, I think with the black, was I used a very thin brush and didn't use thinners with it and it meant the paint was drying out too quickly on the tip. Additionally, along the back is a ridge top and bottom that is meant to represent the fold to stiffen the metalwork of the arm and I couldn't get the paint to run.

 

What I have learnt so far is that the painting is best left until all the arms have been 'gelled', as I can do a whole load of arms in one go so the first one will be dry as I get to the last one, so no hanging about. The use of thinners does help in achieving a better finish, so this I will use it for all the painting from here onwards. In dealing with the bars and chevrons on the Stop and Distant arms, I'm going to have to find a way of finding them after painting - perhaps doing the bars and chevrons first or using a pencil - I'll see.

 

Anyway, here's today's attempt:

 

 

Front side .................

 

 

.............. and backside.

 

I know the photos enlarge the arm and shows all the faults, but the chevrons are definitely a case of 'must try harder'.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Philou

[Philou]

Had a good run today in the painting department so Mrs Philou is happier. I say happier as I think this confinement is not going down too well with her - and even if we could go out, we're still car-less. Me? It doesn't bother me being at home, plenty of DIY and modelling that keeps me busy.

 

Aaaaand talking of modelling, I started doing the arms in batches. The first stage was to use a black marker on the inside of the lens orifice (where the plastic was light coloured) and I completed fixing lenses in about six of them. My chef d'oeuvre, the piece de resistance, was the shunting arm that I managed to gel up. I decided that was good for today and hopefully I can complete the gelling tomorrow ready to tackle the real batch-work - the painting!

 

Here's the shunt signal (unpainted):

 

Just to give an idea of the size ..................

 

and here it is with the coloured gels in place.

 

If anyone pops by, can you advise me where the black bar (presumably vertical) is situated on the backside?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[The Stationmaster]

Phillip if you scroll down on the page linked below you will find a colour picture of a Calling On arm (for that is what it is) painted in GWR style.  Part way down page 3 of that thread you will find - albeit incorrectly located signalling wise - a colour photo of a GWR Shunt Ahead arm.

 

If I'm thinking right what you are actually needing is a Shunt Ahead arm and not a Calling On arm.  The type of arms the GWR used for the two jobs were different, as the photos show, until some time in the 1930s when the Calling on style arm was used also for Shunt Ahead and Warning signals.  But by then any new or renewed subsidiary signals using that pattern of arm were painted in the standard style (see the images on Page 2 of that thread) of white with a red edge along the top and bottom.

 

So on the front your arm needs to be white with the ridges at the top and bottom painted red.   The black vertical stripe on the back of the arm is about halfway between the outer edge of the red shade and the outer end of the arm

[Philou]

@The Stationmaster, Mike, thank you. This is excellent! Your colouring information now ties up with what we were looking at together at Ledbury in the photographs - and explains to me why I was looking at a predominantly 'white' signal despite it being in the 'facing' direction. The signal arm in the photos above does have very faint paint guidelines and these reflect what you describe above - horizontal white with red top and bottom ridges. It didn't have any such guides on the back! I did recall in your other description to me, that the vertical black line was in all probability hidden by the gubbins (light etc), but I shall do it because I can.

 

A question if I may? For the ground signals what colour lenses do I use? I read on the GWR.org site that white was used instead of red for a while, but what about below for 'on' - blue or green?

 

BTW, I have gelled up all the main signals - predominantly blue instead of green for 'on' but there a couple of green ones for variety.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Psssst - I think you may have forgotten the link

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Philou
See above

[Philou]

Onward I go .... managed to gel the ground signals. Egad, they're fiddly but I'm very pleased that I could to it. Batch painting now follows:

 

 

Just to give an idea of its size on the end of a cocktail stick:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Philou said:

@The Stationmaster, Mike, thank you. This is excellent! Your colouring information now ties up with what we were looking at together at Ledbury in the photographs - and explains to me why I was looking at a predominantly 'white' signal despite it being in the 'facing' direction. The signal arm in the photos above does have very faint paint guidelines and these reflect what you describe above - horizontal white with red top and bottom ridges. It didn't have any such guides on the back! I did recall in your other description to me, that the vertical black line was in all probability hidden by the gubbins (light etc), but I shall do it because I can.

 

A question if I may? For the ground signals what colour lenses do I use? I read on the GWR.org site that white was used instead of red for a while, but what about below for 'on' - blue or green?

 

BTW, I have gelled up all the main signals - predominantly blue instead of green for 'on' but there a couple of green ones for variety.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edit: Psssst - I think you may have forgotten the link

 

So I did - better late than never -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/page/4/

 

Now we come to the interesting subject of white lights in GWR ground signals.  At Ledbury 5 of the ground discs would have had white lights at 'on' and the other 7 should have had red lights at 'on' - all would have the normal blueish shade for 'off' thus giving a green light from the yellow flame of the lamp.

 

[Philou]

@The Stationmaster Bum! I've just spent this morning put red/blue lenses in the ground signals. However, I've only done the 5 I have, and there will be another 7 to do when I get some in. I shall read through the link attentively as I see you've been very busy within it, but I may need your guidance regarding which red/white lit ground signals go. I can see them on the Ledbury diagram but there is no indication as to the colour.

 

If I remember correctly, white meant a shunting move could take place provided there wasn't another signal further on preventing the move - or some such. The actual phrase seemed to have the effect of a double negative in it that you had to read very carefully.

 

Here's my batch painting efforts for today, front faces in red or yellows with some of the white done. The reverse faces will be done tomorrow in white plus the black and the spectacles:

 

The start:

 

 

.......... and the finish for today

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Putting it in  (I hope) simple terms a white light was used if the ground signal concerned read towards a signal which showed a red light.  So it couldn't be used to read into a section, and it couldn't be used to read towards an unprotected trailing point (as far as I've been able to establish). 

[Philou]

@The Stationmaster Mike, if I may then, can I PM you my signal plan modified to show the ground discs only so you could indicate to me the red and white ones? On my sketch plan, I only found 11!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Thanks to Mike, The Stationmaster, my ground signals are sorted in terms of red/white lenses. I'll need to get some more GSs in.

 

A surprise parcel from Amazon arrived today - some micro SMD LEDs. They are TINY! I'm sure I'll get those to fit in the holes I've already provided in the signal lamps without any problems. I'll post some up later when time permits as we have the grandchildren at the moment. Only one day so far and we're exhausted just doing maths homework!

 

Here was my effort on Saturday. The arms are completely coloured - front-side and back-side. I've only shown the rear face below:

 

 

Toodle pip,

 

Philip

 

 

[Philou]

I thought I'd share the LEDs that arrived with you today. As mentioned above, they are TINY! I tried them in one or two of the lamps that I drilled out earlier - they fit with room to spare so I'll have to make sure that they are secured into place. The wires are very fine too so they will be less problematic in disguising them on the post. I wanted to try one out, but the wires are varnished and I don't think that I scraped enough varnish off (if any) to make contact on the AA battery that I had. I also need to check the voltage - I think they're 2.5-3.0v and even two AAs didn't work. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

Here's a photo of the LED - the cocktail stick is pointing at it!:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Harlequin]

23 minutes ago, Philou said:

I thought I'd share the LEDs that arrived with you today. As mentioned above, they are TINY! I tried them in one or two of the lamps that I drilled out earlier - they fit with room to spare so I'll have to make sure that they are secured into place. The wires are very fine too so they will be less problematic in disguising them on the post. I wanted to try one out, but the wires are varnished and I don't think that I scraped enough varnish off (if any) to make contact on the AA battery that I had. I also need to check the voltage - I think they're 2.5-3.0v and even two AAs didn't work. I'll try again tomorrow.

 

Here's a photo of the LED - the cocktail stick is pointing at it!:

 

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

This looks very intriguing. It will be interesting to see one working! (Fingers crossed.)

 

Some oil lamps did have wires coming out of them, connected to repeater instruments in the box that indicated whether the lamp was alight or not.  They were used when the signalman couldn't easily see the lamp and in that case there would not be a back blinker and there would be some extra fittings on the post to route the wires down to ground level.

 

[John ks]

If the LED is a bright white LED it may require more than 2 AA's in series to light it

Always use a current limiting resistor in series with a LED

At 12V I usually use a 1k resistor, 

A higher value resistor (up to 10K) can be used to dim the LED if its too bright

At 3V a 100 or 200 ohm resistor could be ok

 

The enamel on the wire can be burnt off with a soldering iron

1 support the wire

2 hold the soldering iron at the end of the wire

3 add solder to the iron until you get a small blob on the end of the iron

4 very slowly feed the blob of solder over the end of the wire, adding a bit of solder as you go ( this is more to get flux onto the job)

Where the wire enters the solder blob you may see the enamel burning off

When you pull the wire from the blob the enamel should be gone & as a bonus the wire is tinned

 

John

 

PS forgive me if I am telling things you already know.

 

 

[Philou]

@Harlequin, @John ks Now that's an interesting bit of information you've given me, Phil, regarding wires and signals. Mike, The Stationmaster, mentioned similar regarding one signal at Ledbury, that had a telegraphic assembly attached to the top and he mused upon it being an arm or signal repeater - and I see now why, because the signal is not easily visible from the 'box - all is clear to me now.

 

Regarding soldering, John, I have to learn a whole load of things - so your not telling me things I didn't already know - so thanks for the advice. There were resistors bundled with the LEDs that I shall have to solder, unfortunately I don't have to hand my resistor ID card, but it seems to work out as a 1.05kohm resistor (brown, black, red and gold). I wanted to just see if it would light on low voltage. It has come pre-wired and I am led to understand that the longer of the two wires is the +ve side and to this should be soldered the resistor?

 

Back to Phil - I really think that the lighting aspect (sorry!) is the least of the problems. For me, it's going to be the mechanics as the plastic is a little brittle and whatever I do, I shan't want to rip the signal to bits!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Philou

[Philou]

Hi chums, I'm back.

 

Well, wonders will never cease. Thanks to John and his regarding soldering the varnished wire - it worked AND I manage to wire the resistor correctly onto the anode. Furthermore, I remembered I had a little transformer that was attached to some LED Christmas tree lights that is rated at 4.2v but has two other settings (50% and 15%) so it was pressed into service, SUCCESS:

 

 

It was then inserted into one of the prepared oil lamps. With the white plastic though, this was very translucent and the light bleeds through. This will be rectified when the posts and the lamps are painted. The lamps have been drilled through so there is a backlight too. In the photos, the camera is a small hand-held and I haven't looked in the settings to diminish the effect of the light that looks much brighter than it really is:

 

 

The next two show the light in a denser grey plastic so less bleed and with this time a 'Stop' arm showing the lamp and the effect on the red and blue lenses. Again, with the limitations of my camera the light looks more intense:

 

 

 

I think it's a RESULT! I just hope now I shall be able the construct the things and make them work. As you can see the wires are very fine - some superglue and paint will see to them.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[FoxUnpopuli]

5 hours ago, Philou said:

brown, black, red and gold

 

That's a 1kOhm resistor (1,0,2 = 10 x 100) ±5% tolerance for the gold band.

 

However, the lit signal looks superb!  Another timesuck for a big layout...  I really don't know what I've let myself in for...

[Philou]

@FoxUnpopuli Thanks for confirming that it is a 1kOhm (I hadn't allowed for the 5% tolerance and just chucked it into the total). I am feeling really chuffed (sorry) at the moment. I cannot believe that I created something that looks the part. It's always been RTR in the main, but with the lockdown and having the kits knocking around for some time, I decided I'd give it a go. I'm not really sure what time I took as I worked mainly in the afternoons with the better light. Took a whole day to pull all the kit parts off their sprues (gently did it as the plastic was brittle on some) and to reassemble the pile into the relevant signals (16 including the 5 ground signals). Two afternoons to cut off and drill out the oil lamps and other holes and likewise for the spectacles. Surprisingly, cutting the gels out and glueing only took one afternoon, but the filing to shape and fiddling with the ground signals took another afternoon.

 

Painting took at least three afternoons as I decided lots of thin coats were better, and there was the inevitable touching up to do.

 

But the end result was well worth it! If you've got the opportunity I'd give it a go - if I can, I'm sure you can too .

 

Cost wise? Can you believe that for £20 I have the basis of 16 lit signals? £4 for the kits (OK OK very old stock) and £16 for 20 nano-LEDs and resistors (p&p included to here). My regret is that the old Ratio kits are no longer available and the newer ones seem to be very limited in variety as I will have all my Pontrilas ones to do too (13 plus 8 ground signals) and I shan't find ones at that price!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Phiip, This thread isn't really about layout design any more. Could it be sensibly moved or split, do you think?

 

[Philou]

@Harlequin I sort of agree with you, but where to go? I've duplicated the signal bit over on Captain Kernow's very old thread that was started with respect to lighting signals just to relate what I did here.

 

Whilst it's not strictly track laying, it's all related to the overall design of my intended layout. I don't particularly want to do a blog, but I also wanted to keep my thread alive as for the moment, due to Covid, I'm not going to be able to start the layout anytime soon .

 

Just by way of asking: If and when the layout does start in earnest, do you think I should start a new thread elsewhere? I note that gordon s, of Eastwood Town, just renames his thread as time goes on, but it's still the original thread. Should I do the same thing?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

@Harlequin I sort of agree with you, but where to go? I've duplicated the signal bit over on Captain Kernow's very old thread that was started with respect to lighting signals just to relate what I did here.

 

Whilst it's not strictly track laying, it's all related to the overall design of my intended layout. I don't particularly want to do a blog, but I also wanted to keep my thread alive as for the moment, due to Covid, I'm not going to be able to start the layout anytime soon .

 

Just by way of asking: If and when the layout does start in earnest, do you think I should start a new thread elsewhere? I note that gordon s, of Eastwood Town, just renames his thread as time goes on, but it's still the original thread. Should I do the same thing?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

Sometimes there's no clear best place for content so it can be tricky but the signalling content might fit well in "Permanent Way, Signalling and Infrastructure" - there are similar threads there.

 

(If the current subject was track laying I'd still say that doesn't really belong in the design forum...)

 

Renaming a thread to describe the current status of a project seems to be a popular thing to do and it makes sense, I think. When you're ready to start a layout topic (and you could do that now if you wanted) it should almost certainly be in, wait for it, "Layout Topics".

 

Sorry about this, I'm just in a tidying up mood!

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Harlequin