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Can anyone help with when the LB&SCR stopped using "LB&SCR" on its wagon sides and moved to LBSC? 

 

The HMRS data on their transfers simply states that LB&SCR was used "in early days".  Reference to the Bennett Collection of photos (Lightmore Press) seems to show a lot of open wagons with LB&SCR as the markings, but largely without a specific date - many of these pictures have however been dated to the period 1900 - 1912.

 

I am currently surmising that LBSC may well have come in during WW1, but would welcome any hard information if anyone from the Brighton Circle or elsewhere could help.

 

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I would say that the person I would ask is Peter from Kirtley models. He goes under the "kirtleypete" in this parish. He is a font of knowledge on this subject. I think the large letters are a late addition 1910 ish. But don't quote me on that.

 

Marc

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I imagine the change would've been roughly the same time as when the ampersand was removed from loco tanks and tender sides.

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Round about 1911.  I've got both types of lettering for a 1913 layout.  If you were at Warley, you would have seen my stock on Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

Bill

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Round about 1911.  I've got both types of lettering for a 1913 layout.  If you were at Warley, you would have seen my stock on Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

Bill

 

Agree.

According to Southern Wagons Vol 2, the "LBSC" style was introduced in 1911, but it would have taken several years before all wagons in the earlier style were repainted - and no doubt the war caused the time between repaints to be extended longer than usual.

Best wishes

Eric   

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Many, many thanks to all for the rapid replies.  Looks like I can legitimately use both and get the most out of the transfer sheet.  LOL

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Agree.

According to Southern Wagons Vol 2, the "LBSC" style was introduced in 1911, but it would have taken several years before all wagons in the earlier style were repainted - and no doubt the war caused the time between repaints to be extended longer than usual.

Best wishes

Eric   

 

Thanks. Saved me having to find my copy. :)

 

 

 

Jason

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And now a supplementary question if I may: Does anyone know if wagon sheets also changed from LB&SCRy to LBSC at the same time?

 

I am not holding my breath on this one given the apparent paucity of information on wagon sheets and ropes in general.  Hands up if you knew that the ropes to tie down loads and sheets were colour coded by owning company. 

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And now a supplementary question if I may: Does anyone know if wagon sheets also changed from LB&SCRy to LBSC at the same time?

 

I am not holding my breath on this one given the apparent paucity of information on wagon sheets and ropes in general.  Hands up if you knew that the ropes to tie down loads and sheets were colour coded by owning company. 

 

I did post a summary of the information to be gleaned from Bob Essery's article in Midland Record, possibly on the Castle Aching thread, but I can't find it now - not Brighton specifically, but a lot about sheet and rope colour-coding and arrangements for return to the owning company. EDIT: found it! On Mikkel's workbench thread - we were doing the rounds of sheets, ropes, crates and ladders.

 

Thomas Petith (wagonsheets.co.uk) does a sheet branded LB&SCR in his excellent range - presumably based on photographic evidence or description in some published source?

Edited by Compound2632
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Well, here’s a r-t-r model of one, made in 1913, in a series that was always very prototype conscious and up-to-date.

 

This is a severe zoom-in on a photo of one with the sheet intact. There are better-quality pictures of one with no sheet in my thread.

 

The artwork for this was almost certainly done ‘from life’ or a recent photo, so there were some with ‘long lettering’ still around at that date.

 

Kevin

post-26817-0-34972500-1518884359.jpeg

Edited by Nearholmer
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These Carette/Bing/Bassett-Lowke wagons can provide useful contemporary evidence but one thing I wouldn't trust is the ironwork picked out in black, which I assume was done to give it better contrast on the flat tinplate surface. Here's a LNWR example, which is clearly at variance with what is known about LNWR wagon livery from photos and other sources. But the lettering is spot on. I'm sure I've seen more extreme examples: Midland in such pale grey that the lettering is in black - but I can't trace a photo just now. 

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It does make you wonder, because they knew well how to represent strapping without making it black. The GN and GW examples spring to mind.

 

I’m inclined to trust Carette at least his period, because Greenly prepared the artwork which they worked from, and the customers even got to vote for which wagons they would like to see produced next, and were just as picky about the resulting models as people are now.

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I wonder if in some cases black iron work was the equivalent of photographic loco grey.

 

I have seen examples of ex-works pictures of wagons with picked out iron work and no single example of such wagons so decorated in service.  

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I suspect the answer may be that when wagons were repainted, they didn't always bother with the finer points of the livery. Also, where wagons were built by contractors, there might be subtle differences.

 

Ultimately, it's unlikely a pre-group G.M. was much bothered if wagons were not perfectly painted as long as they were fit for purpose and did their job of carting stuff about in return for revenue. As I mentioned in another thread, I suspect that the pre-group companies were not as rigid over "image" as many modern companies are, and therefore livery variations often existed. 

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