Greater Anglia's Stadler Flirt - Class 745 & 755

[Rail Way]

21 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Right.  So what you are basically saying is in the Autumns prior to 2019 there were still signalling problems, but they didn't really cause the level of disruption we have witnessed in the past three months ? Some of that may be the case because NR have commissioned a lot of new signalling over the last year or so.

 

But sorry, I am not totally buying it.  GA would not be cleaning wheelsets with citrus oil if they knew the Stadlers were not a problem.  Don't get me wrong, Stadler have a huge reputation, and I find it very difficult to believe their products don't interact with the infrastructure here in the UK like they do in Holland, Germany and Switzerland.

Was the testing at Velim concluded satisfactorily ?

  

The disruption over the past few weeks has been caused by faults with the signalling system. Greater Anglia have said this over and over again and you still don't get it. As they said last week in an FAQ piece on their site, the idea that the new trains are solely to blame is categorically not true.

 

I also read back through the thread and noticed people saying freight trains and EMR trains are running and that is further proof it's the new trains that are broken. What a load of imaginative rubbish. Network Rail is responsible for prioritising which trains run on their infrastructure, so again, perhaps ask them why they didn't give GA higher priority. 

 

In addition, Network Rail last week were running extra rail head treatment trains because of the problems on the infrastructure which also caused many cancellations. Do you think they would waste their time, money and effort and running such trains if the infrastructure was fine and the problem was related to a fault with the new trains? 

 

Taking all the above into account, you'd think if NR were being blamed for something that isn't their fault, they'd come out and say something about it. But no, they're working with GA on the issues and are looking at how ALL TRAINS (both new and old) interact with the infrastructure. If it's obviously the new trains as you claim, isn't it odd that Network Rail haven't just come out and said it. Perhaps the reason NR haven't, is because the new trains are not the cause after all?

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rail Way

[Rail Way]

5 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Do you know what NR has actually done then?

 

What proof have you got that the faults isn't with the new trains? What proof do you have to that GA are telling the true truth?

 

Andy G

 

 

I've just made another post where I've informed you.

 

You seem to not know what burden of proof is. You are not right until somebody proves you wrong. It is up to you to prove what you are saying and so far all I see are words on a screen and perceptions. 

 

Some random person on a forum who I don't know from Adam who could be literally anyone versus experienced railwaymen paid to do their job who work for Greater Anglia with probably decades of years of experience. 

 

Not hard to choose who to believe is it and I would be very careful about making accusations against a company that you are unable to back up. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rail Way

[uax6]

1 minute ago, Rail Way said:

 

 

I also read back through the thread and noticed people saying freight trains and EMR trains are running and that is further proof it's the new trains that are broken. What a load of imaginative rubbish. Network Rail is responsible for prioritising which trains run on their infrastructure, so again, perhaps ask them why they didn't give GA higher priority. 

 

Priority? What sort of boll*cks are you talking about here? The only priority that is given is on the class of train, class 1's (express passengers) get priority over class 2's (stopping passengers) who get the run on stock and freight. There is no other levels of priority.

1 minute ago, Rail Way said:

In addition, Network Rail last week were running extra rail head treatment trains because of the problems on the infrastructure which also caused many cancellations. Do you think they would waste their time, money and effort and running such trains if the infrastructure was fine and the problem was related to a fault with the new trains? 

 

Mitigation dear boy. If it is railhead contamination then we clean it up the most efficient way we can, and sometimes running a RHTT is the best way to do so, and some weeks we have to run more than others, dependant on the weather and leaf fall.

1 minute ago, Rail Way said:

Taking all the above into account, you'd think if NR were being blamed for something that isn't their fault, they'd come out and say something about it. But no, they're working with GA on the issues and are looking at how ALL TRAINS (both new and old) interact with the infrastructure. If it's obviously the new trains as you claim, isn't it odd that Network Rail haven't just come out and said it. Perhaps the reason NR haven't, is because the new trains are not the cause after all?

 

Do you think they would? Would it look professional to have a public slinging match rather than just getting on and sorting what it could do to help the situation out...

 

Andy G

[uax6]

Ok Sir. Have it your way. I will put the troll food away and retreat to the warmth of my nice cosy Signalbox, as I'm sure some others on this thread will do.

 

Andy G

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by uax6

[Rail Way]

1 minute ago, uax6 said:

 

Priority? What sort of boll*cks are you talking about here? The only priority that is given is on the class of train, class 1's (express passengers) get priority over class 2's (stopping passengers) who get the run on stock and freight. There is no other levels of priority.

 

Mitigation dear boy. If it is railhead contamination then we clean it up the most efficient way we can, and sometimes running a RHTT is the best way to do so, and some weeks we have to run more than others, dependant on the weather and leaf fall.

 

Do you think they would? Would it look professional to have a public slinging match rather than just getting on and sorting what it could do to help the situation out...

 

Andy G

You don't have to take my word for it about priority, there it is in black and white. 
https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/blog-post/latest-information-greater-anglia-rail-disruption-in-norfolk-and

 

If it is railhead contamination then surely this effects all trains rather than just the new trains. Now perhaps I am incorrect, but we don't have Maglev trains in this country at the moment and the old tired legacy stock on GA that is being replaced by transformational new stock certainly isn't capable of somehow rising above the track to skip over the contaminated rails. 

 

If someone was blaming my company for their own failures then there is not a cat in hells chance that I would sit back and do nothing. I would make sure that I didn't take any of the flack for something that is outside my control. The simple fact is that it's likely that if Network Rail did come out and state the new trains are at fault, despite nothing from those involved in this matter that suggests this, of course GA are not going to sit there and take it and nor should they when they have been very open and honest with a range of detailed and informative FAQs in recent days. 

[beast66606]

I'm not going to reply to the bullsh*t on this thread posted recently*, those of us in the know understand whats going on here.

 

*Except to say that other trains are not affected except on the Cromer line, where after a near miss /wrong side failure it is a critical safety matter to impose a TSR for ALL trains until the cause of the issue is ascertained and the solution decided upon and implemented.

 

What I will do is ask a simple question - would it be a politically / strategically / whatever-ally move for GA to admit their new trains are at fault ?

[Zomboid]

Do you have any inside information, or are you taking what GA's publicity department have said at face value?

 

I don't know any of the details of this myself, but I've seen the details behind enough other incidents to know that the public story is designed to make the company telling it look as innocent as possible and is also highly simplified because you usually have to be up to your armpits in the detail to begin to understand what's actually gone on and why.

 

Plus a train that doesn't interact with the signalling as expected can legitimately be described as a signalling problem, as the trains wheels and axles form a critical part of the signalling system.

[Rail Way]

14 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

What I will do is ask a simple question - would it be a politically / strategically / whatever-ally move for GA to admit their new trains are at fault ?

Why would Greater Anglia not be honest?

 

At the end of the day if it's as simple as you say it is and the new trains are not to blame, then surely the Department for Transport will see that too? Do you really think Abellio would take that big risk of covering something like this up when they make the amount of money that they do from franchises in the UK? That would be extremely reckless and the Dutch do not do business in that way.

 

It is no wonder that Greater Anglia are frustrated. According to press reports today Jamie Burles has now hit out at the local media for printing what seem to be clearly inaccurate stories blaming the new trains for the problem. I guess it's probably fuelled by the people outside the industry last week posting rumour and speculation on web forums who have no idea what they are talking about. 

 

These problems cannot last forever and sooner or later Network Rail is going to have to pluck up the courage and take the hit and do some serious work on the infrastructure to make sure that all trains, whether they be freight or passenger, Greater Anglia or East Midlands Railway, modern, mid-life or aging rolling stock can offer a reliable service that passengers expect and deserve. Unfortunately right now they are being failed, despite the best efforts of GA. 

 

People deserve to see the benefits of these new, transformational trains that will be a step change in comfort for passengers in East Anglia but this can only happen when the fault with the signalling system is resolved. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rail Way

[Siggie in the east]

15 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Ok Sir. Have it your way. I will put the troll food away and retreat to the warmth of my nice cosy Network Rail signalbox, as I'm sure some others on this thread will do.

 

Andy G

 

 

 

That's the comment of the week! 

 I couldn't agree more.  Obviously mr Rail Way here is Jamie Burles in disguise or his fan boy as he is believing the Q&A pages of a company who are obviously going to deny/defend their rolling stock because the reality of the truth is going to cost them a FORTUNE to sort out.

Yes the truth will out eventually but given that there are people who signal trains (me included), work on the infrastructure(I have previously) also drive the trains in this region, work for S&T AND all are exposed to the facts of what goes on on a day to day basis, you seem to think that we are nothing but theorists and rumour spreading novices! I cant seem to understand why you think that the press office at GA, who are TOLD what to publish, are more believable than people that are working on the front line on a day to day basis. 

[Rail Way]

14 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Do you have any inside information, or are you taking what GA's publicity department have said at face value?

 

I don't know any of the details of this myself, but I've seen the details behind enough other incidents to know that the public story is designed to make the company telling it look as innocent as possible and is also highly simplified because you usually have to be up to your armpits in the detail to begin to understand what's actually gone on and why.

If you want to produce a document with some proof that what they say is correct, based on actual evidence rather than your opinion and what you perceive, by all means go ahead and I'll be happy to consider it. Think I'll be waiting a long time though. 

 

At the end of the day we've been through all of this before and this idea that Greater Anglia isn't being honest is a bit farcical and as I've said before, if you are going to make such claims you need to back them up since people who make damaging accusations about companies have in the past found themselves in hot water. 

[swills]

15 minutes ago, Rail Way said:

The disruption over the past few weeks has been caused by faults with the signalling system. Greater Anglia have said this over and over again and you still don't get it. As they said last week in an FAQ piece on their site, the idea that the new trains are solely to blame is categorically not true.

 

I also read back through the thread and noticed people saying freight trains and EMR trains are running and that is further proof it's the new trains that are broken. What a load of imaginative rubbish. Network Rail is responsible for prioritising which trains run on their infrastructure, so again, perhaps ask them why they didn't give GA higher priority. 

 

In addition, Network Rail last week were running extra rail head treatment trains because of the problems on the infrastructure which also caused many cancellations. Do you think they would waste their time, money and effort and running such trains if the infrastructure was fine and the problem was related to a fault with the new trains? 

 

Taking all the above into account, you'd think if NR were being blamed for something that isn't their fault, they'd come out and say something about it. But no, they're working with GA on the issues and are looking at how ALL TRAINS (both new and old) interact with the infrastructure. If it's obviously the new trains as you claim, isn't it odd that Network Rail haven't just come out and said it. Perhaps the reason NR haven't, is because the new trains are not the cause after all?

 

There are issues on the Cromer line, that is a given, AHB's are on local, or if not a caution over them, this applies to all trains, regardless of type, to avoid an incident, whereby a Signaller mistakes what type of unit is on the line, thus 156's are affected by default,  WHEN was the crossing equipment modified ?  as last year there were no problems at all, they started all of  sudden when the 755's kicked off,  the 755's have all been modified since, by removing flange  lubricators, and having citrous oil applied to shine the wheels a bit,  it is fair to say that similar units have had problems in Italy, Holland and Germany.   As for priority,  the line is run by Class 2's and dealt with as such, The tanks are Class 6 and take a lower priority.

Was it not said when the trains were first ordered that no one on the Ops side of GA were consulted, they were ordered by the commercial side, so there maybe the first glimpses of issues to come back then.

 

The 755's certainly do not like the UK network it seems, but that is not really a NR fault.  HOWEVER NR WILL one assumes have to alter things at great cost to enable GA to run the darn things.

 

There has also been days on end with no service on the Felixstowe, for no real reason at all,   None on the Sudbury, but they have not had any test trips at all yet on there, so that is one reason, if no spare 156's

 

Fuel is another big issue, and is causing a lot of delays and cancellations.

[russ p]

They could last forever if they can't find out exactly what happened and why 

Those GA press releases are like 70s eastern block countries reporting on tractor production! 

[Rail Way]

10 minutes ago, Siggie in the east said:

That's the comment of the week! 

 I couldn't agree more.  Obviously mr Rail Way here is Jamie Burles in disguise or his fan boy as he is believing the Q&A pages of a company who are obviously going to deny/defend their rolling stock because the reality of the truth is going to cost them a FORTUNE to sort out.

Yes the truth will out eventually but given that there are people who signal trains (me included), work on the infrastructure(I have previously) also drive the trains in this region, work for S&T AND all are exposed to the facts of what goes on on a day to day basis, you seem to think that we are nothing but theorists and rumour spreading novices! I cant seem to understand why you think that the press office at GA, who are TOLD what to publish, are more believable than people that are working on the front line on a day to day basis. 

Why would it cost Greater Anglia a fortune? The infrastructure is owned by Network Rail and it is their responsibility for it's upkeep.

 

The fault with the signalling system on the Norwich to Sherringham line is apparently so bad that the whole line might have to have the signalling system changed to a system as used on other lines in the country which are not suffering problems, from what I have heard because there are serious issues with both new and legacy stock being picked up 

 

But apparently it's the new trains of course....

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rail Way

[Siggie in the east]

Yeah transformational.... one transformed elmswell overbridge with its pan and one nearly transformed a Ford focus into something else.

These trains have been nothing but a headache and stress for us. They haven't been tested properly enough and because something has fallen apart with the cascading of stock/arrival of stock/storage of stock it's all been rushed into service far too soon because GA have had no choice. They haven't done the necessary mileage and I know this because we have been told they havent.

Also, as I forgot to mention earlier, there IS NOT a signalling issue on the Peterborough route. The reason there arent any services is because there isnt enough stock to cover all the other routes and the 755s havent had enough testing over that route to deem they fit for purpose. Since the crossing issue, they've been banned from running along there until something is resolved. On top of that, they're too long to serve Manea and Whittlesea anyway as the units cant isolate doors independently still, which is backed up by the fact that the units being used on the felixstowe are the same ones each day and have had specific doors locked out of use.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Siggie in the east

[russ p]

Older trains have never had a problem with it , when it was first done someone just had to mention the word lightning and the system would go down but that is largely sorted now

[Rail Way]

9 minutes ago, russ p said:

They could last forever if they can't find out exactly what happened and why 

Those GA press releases are like 70s eastern block countries reporting on tractor production! 

I bet there were conspiracy theorists in the 70s as well, although at least the internet didn't exist so they couldn't spread so easily.

[beast66606]

You didn't answer the question and evaded my point about the level crossing affected by the incident having a blanket TSR applied for safety reasons.

 

No-one has said anything about a cover up so don't put words in anyones mouth however I worked in industry long enough to know how to play with words to say and not say anything accountable.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Rail Way said:

If you want to produce a document with some proof that what they say is correct, based on actual evidence rather than your opinion and what you perceive, by all means go ahead and I'll be happy to consider it. Think I'll be waiting a long time though. 

 

How about YOU produce evidence of the signalling faults (other than the one under RAIB investigation) and we'll be happy to consider it ?

 

 

 

 

[Rail Way]

12 minutes ago, swills said:

Was it not said when the trains were first ordered that no one on the Ops side of GA were consulted, they were ordered by the commercial side, so there maybe the first glimpses of issues to come back then.

 

The 755's certainly do not like the UK network it seems, but that is not really a NR fault.  HOWEVER NR WILL one assumes have to alter things at great cost to enable GA to run the darn things.

 

There has also been days on end with no service on the Felixstowe, for no real reason at all,   None on the Sudbury, but they have not had any test trips at all yet on there, so that is one reason, if no spare 156's

 

Fuel is another big issue, and is causing a lot of delays and cancellations.

In relation to Felixstowe services that were cancelled a fair bit last month this was the result of unfortunate incidents.

 

The problem is many of the rural lines are exactly that and the weather hasn't been great this year. Flooding and a number of vehicles hitting animals and vandalism incidents have resulted in the Greater Anglia DMU fleet being very stretched for a number of months now. This was down to sheer bad luck and there's nothing that Greater Anglia could do about this, when your luck is out and your luck is out.

 

We should not hold a number of freak incidents against Greater Anglia, since the whole idea of ordering the new fleet is to give more redundancy - to prevent this kind of issue in the future and this order will certainly do that, with longer carriages, more comfortable seats, USB sockets, more tables, high speed Wifi and far better passenger amenities. Rail is being transformed in this region and instead of moaning about first world problems, maybe we should realise how lucky we are, when you compare some of the other franchise owning groups who would never even think of doing such a massive step change transformation. 

 

Stadler are a well proven train building company and have made FLIRTS all around the world and many repeat customers. If they were so bad as you say they are and everyone else was having problems how would this be the case? The rolling stock market is competitive, you don't win the number of orders that Stadler do if your work is sub standard. Perhaps there's a little bit of sour grapes here because that they were not built in the UK and that is why the anti Stadler vibe?

 

Of course Network Rail will have to fix things at great cost to make the trains run, because passengers deserve to be able to depend on their train service and to enjoy the new features of state of the art rolling stock. If the signalling system worked perfectly then Network Rail wouldn't have to spend this money, but the system doesn't work perfectly so Network Rail need to invest time and money on fixing the issues with the signalling system. 

[ess1uk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-50811723

latest 

[Rail Way]

8 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

How about YOU produce evidence of the signalling faults (other than the one under RAIB investigation) and we'll be happy to consider it ?

I will tell you the same as I told your friend on the previous page.

 

Greater Anglia and Network Rail, the train operator of this region and the infrastructure provider has stated that there are signalling issues and Greater Anglia has recently as today said there is a fault with the signalling system on their social media pages and their train updates. Do you think that these people are lying. A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

It is not up to me to prove that what you say is incorrect. It is up to you to prove that you are correct and you have failed to do so yet again and are trying to turn the burden of proof on to me which is a typical fallacy that is used by people who simply have nothing to back their wafer thin argument up. I can see right through you, I'm sure others can too, it seems GA certainly can, since their message on Friday on their FAQ seemed to suggest they're well aware of the rubbish that is being spouted. 

[russ p]

More comfortable seats! I'm dreading my first journey to London on one they are far too upright for me nowhere near as comfortable as a mk3 or 170 seat

[russ p]

1 minute ago, Rail Way said:

I will tell you the same as I told your friend on the previous page.

 

Greater Anglia and Network Rail, the train operator of this region and the infrastructure provider has stated that there are signalling issues and Greater Anglia has recently as today said there is a fault with the signalling system on their social media pages and their train updates. Do you think that these people are lying. A simple yes or no will suffice.

 

It is not up to me to prove that what you say is incorrect. It is up to you to prove that you are correct and you have failed to do so yet again and are trying to turn the burden of proof on to me which is a typical fallacy that is used by people who simply have nothing to back their wafer thin argument up. I can see right through you, I'm sure others can too, it seems GA certainly can, since their message on Friday on their FAQ seemed to suggest they're well aware of the rubbish that is being spouted. 

 

 

Have you not thought there maybe substantial management bonuses at stake if the new train aren't into service soon?

[Rail Way]

4 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-50811723

latest 

 

Ancient History more like.

 

Here's the latest:

https://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/no-date-train-disruption-norwich-sheringham-line-1-6428472?fbclid=IwAR1a-5-AIyThc7cR71klwLBmZ8PGSuonbr94YjM0NG-XHGyvHKdYhJWTfd0

 

Quote

In his weekly message to staff, Greater Anglia's managing director Jamie Burles said the speed restrictions would remain in place until Network Rail changed the signalling system, which is different to other lines in the region.

"Network Rail and Greater Anglia colleagues literally worked through day and night to fully understand the causes," he said.

"Network Rail installed sophisticated signal measuring equipment on Norwich-Cromer-Sheringham line to gain vital information on what was happening, particularly regarding level crossings.

"The information that came back showed the signalling system wasn't picking up both old and new trains as strongly as Network Rail would like."

Mr Burles added that the service was better than last week when 80 services were cancelled every day across the network.

But that disruption has put back the testing of Greater Anglia's new fleet of trains and driver training. He said that would cause some cancellations on routes out of Ipswich.

Mr Burles also took a swipe at the media in his weekly message, accusing it of "incorrect headlines" for stating that the company's new Stadler trains were the cause of problems.

 

The bits in bold might be useful for the know-it-alls here.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Rail Way

[Rail Way]

7 minutes ago, russ p said:

Have you not thought there maybe substantial management bonuses at stake if the new train aren't into service soon?

The parent company clearly has faith in the management of Greater Anglia.

 

If they were that concerned then I'm sure they would make a change, but they haven't because perhaps management are actually doing a good job considering the difficult circumstances that they have found themselves in?

[beast66606]

1 minute ago, Rail Way said:

 

Ancient History more like.

 

Here's the latest:

https://www.northnorfolknews.co.uk/news/no-date-train-disruption-norwich-sheringham-line-1-6428472?fbclid=IwAR1a-5-AIyThc7cR71klwLBmZ8PGSuonbr94YjM0NG-XHGyvHKdYhJWTfd0

 

 

The bits in bold might be useful for the know-it-alls here.

 

Your attitude stinks and smells of troll.