Sutable loco for an 1920's gunpowder works tramway

[MarcD]

I have always wanted to model the Blackbeck Gunpowder tramway. It ran from Ladysyke siding on the Furness Railway's Lakeside branch some 3 miles up the Russland valley to the works at Blackbeck near Bouth. It ran from 1868 until 1928. It was standard gauge and to my knowledge always horse drawn. And there lies the problem. How do you model a working horse that can shunt? Short of solving the horse issue could anyone suggest a sutable prototype for the post WW1 era?

 

Marc

[Mim]

How about a fireless locomotive? Bagnall of Stafford started making them in 1924, so just in period. Ideal for going in to a gunpowder works. This site suggests that Black Beck had a stationary boiler for the works, so a fireless loco could be recharged. If one could make the 7 mile round trip on one charge I don't know, but they could shunt for several hours, so plausible. Relatively easy to modify a proprietary, or kit 0-4-0 shunter. Turn the chassis round so the cylinders are under the cab. Put a big cylindrical vessel where the boiler, firebox and smokebox usually goes. No tanks, no chimney.

 

I've never heard of a convincing working model of a shunting horse. Pretty much impossible with current technology. Working shunting tractors can and have been done, even down to 2mm scale, but these are too late for your period and wouldn't have been used on a 3.5 mile line anyway. Other than that, then any period suitable 0-4-0, or 0-6-0 industrial, or contractors engine, made by many companies, would be suitable. Perhaps with a spark arrestor on the chimney?

 

Mim

[GeoffAlan]

How about a fireless locomotive? Bagnall of Stafford started making them in 1924, so just in period. Ideal for going in to a gunpowder works. This site suggests that Black Beck had a stationary boiler for the works, so a fireless loco could be recharged. If one could make the 7 mile round trip on one charge I don't know, but they could shunt for several hours, so plausible. Relatively easy to modify a proprietary, or kit 0-4-0 shunter. Turn the chassis round so the cylinders are under the cab. Put a big cylindrical vessel where the boiler, firebox and smokebox usually goes. No tanks, no chimney.

 

I've never heard of a convincing working model of a shunting horse. Pretty much impossible with current technology. Working shunting tractors can and have been done, even down to 2mm scale, but these are too late for your period and wouldn't have been used on a 3.5 mile line anyway. Other than that, then any period suitable 0-4-0, or 0-6-0 industrial, or contractors engine, made by many companies, would be suitable. Perhaps with a spark arrestor on the chimney?

 

Mim

 

IIRC Lilliput make a fireless loco in N. As it's a Bachmann company you may find an HO equivalent.

[Gibbo675]

I have always wanted to model the Blackbeck Gunpowder tramway. It ran from Ladysyke siding on the Furness Railway's Lakeside branch some 3 miles up the Russland valley to the works at Blackbeck near Bouth. It ran from 1868 until 1928. It was standard gauge and to my knowledge always horse drawn. And there lies the problem. How do you model a working horse that can shunt? Short of solving the horse issue could anyone suggest a sutable prototype for the post WW1 era?

 

Marc

Hi Marc,

 

I remember the gunpowder tramway at Gathust on the Wigan to Southport line and the small petrol locomotives that were used upon it. The tracks turned sharp left, through a small tunnel under the road and then over a long lattice viaduct across the Douglas Valley. The whole tramway is now gone except for the bricked up tunnel entrance and the concrete bases for the piers of the viaduct. I know that this is narrow gauge tramway but there were standard gauge contraptions that were of a similar style, very often petrol Simplex locomotives.

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/54/102/

 

I have seen another picture on Martyn Hibbert's photo site but I can't seem to find it and I should be building a wall today not looking at photos.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Marc,

 

I remember the gunpowder tramway at Gathust on the Wigan to Southport line and the small petrol locomotives that were used upon it. The tracks turned sharp left, through a small tunnel under the road and then over a long lattice viaduct across the Douglas Valley. The whole tramway is now gone except for the bricked up tunnel entrance and the concrete bases for the piers of the viaduct. I know that this is narrow gauge tramway but there were standard gauge contraptions that were of a similar style, very often petrol Simplex locomotives.

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/54/102/

 

I have seen another picture on Martyn Hibbert's photo site but I can't seem to find it and I should be building a wall today not looking at photos.

 

Gibbo.

I've just had a thought, fireless locomotives only worked in environments where there is a voluminous steam supply such as at power stations, refineries and chemical works.

[GoingUnderground]

A battery loco might fit your requirements. There were steeplecab designs from that era such as the L&Y one, or a Manx electric, either the original design or as rebuilt, omitting the trolley pole. No sparks or embers flying through the air. No problems with needing a source of steam. Plenty of haulage power. Just put the mpd/charging point away from the explosive areas as there will be arcing when connecting to the recharging point.

 

If you want something a bit different, how about one of the Mather & Platt locos from the City & South London, with the backstory that after the C&SL tube tunnels were widened, it was sold, not scrapped, and converted to be a battery loco.

Edited July 1, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[MarcD]

I do have a Midland battery loco which dates from 1914 and a ABS armoured simplex that had been converted to standard gauge after WW1. Also I was told about the War Dept buying fireless locos for the big explosive plant on the Scottish boarder.  The loco will only have to pull about 4 wagons/vans max more likely 2 at a time. I have always liked fireless locos and As there was a source of steam onsite using one is a possibility.

 

Using production figures for 1913 I have worked out that between 8 and 10 vans would have gone in and out everyday. On top of that sulphur, saltpetre, coal, wood for the cooperage and to a lesser extent charcoal would also need to be shipped in.

 

To my knowledge the tramway didn't carry any general goods into the Russland valley although there are 2 sidings along the line where they could have been used for loading or unloading goods. One is just before the line crosses what is now the A590, by what is now the Russland Pool hotel. The other being just before the line crossed the road to Bouth and entered the works site. They are not very big and would have only held 4 wagons maximum also why would you store full or empty wagons outside of the site?

 

Marc 

[The Johnster]

Greenwood and Batley made very small battery locos, a simple steeple cab design.  I have one, a bit battered nowadays, made by a friend many years ago for my Glamorganshire Canal/Riverside (Cardiff) branch.  It has a Tenshodo power bogie and runs very smoothly, though the top speed and haulage capacity are both unrealistically high; the prototype could, apparently, only manage 1 loaded or 3 empties at a time.

[MarcD]

That reminds me I was given the etches for one of those locos years ago. This is tarting to look like a runner.

 

Marc

[MarcD]

Thought I should post some pictures of the prototype. The photo is of the site entrance. to the left was the site of one of the sidings and to the right the site entrance and one of the cooperage buildings with the line crossing the road on the level with an un-gated crossing. The magazines were about 1/4 mile up the track to the right and the works another 1/4 mile on from there.  

 

Marc

[Northroader]

A narrow guage one, I’m afraid, but how about one of the battery locos that worked the WW1 mustard gas plant at Avonmouth? Two went on to be converted to third rail and work the Hythe Pier line, ninety odd years Day in, Day out, and still going strong, so deserve recognition. Ugly little b*******s.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Greenwood and Batley made very small battery locos, a simple steeple cab design.  I have one, a bit battered nowadays, made by a friend many years ago for my Glamorganshire Canal/Riverside (Cardiff) branch.  It has a Tenshodo power bogie and runs very smoothly, though the top speed and haulage capacity are both unrealistically high; the prototype could, apparently, only manage 1 loaded or 3 empties at a time.

 

Greenbat could manage two 20 Ton LMS brake vans with ease. Unfortunately I don't think it's moved under it's own power since the mid 1980s.

 

https://ribblesteam.org.uk/exhibits/diesel/greenwood-batley-2000-1945-greenbat/

 

A photo of it in use.

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/worcesterps.html

 

 

 

Jason

[Dava]

Sounds like a reason for a couple of BE locos as one could be running and the other on charge.

 

Dava

[MarcD]

Any idea when they started to build them? If it was about WW1 then is a good choice. 1945 is a bit new as the works closed in 1928.

 

Marc

[Steamport Southport]

Some details of Greenwood and Batley here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_%26_Batley

 

Seems to be late 1920s for the narrow gauge and 1930 for standard.

 

 

 

Jason

[Joseph_Pestell]

IIRC Lilliput make a fireless loco in N. As it's a Bachmann company you may find an HO equivalent.

 

That fireless loco has definitely been available in HO from Bachmann/Liliput. Not that it would be difficult to scratchbuild a fireless body to put on top of an 0-4-0 chassis.

 

I remember seeing photos of gunpowder wagons on the Lakeside branch. The layout of the sidings was such that gunpowder vans were propelled in front of the goods train and therefore next to the loco chimney - normally forbidden for gunpowder vans but I assume they were empty in that direction.

[decauville1126]

A narrow guage one, I’m afraid, but how about one of the battery locos that worked the WW1 mustard gas plant at Avonmouth? Two went on to be converted to third rail and work the Hythe Pier line, ninety odd years Day in, Day out, and still going strong, so deserve recognition. Ugly little b*******s.

 

F537B4A6-8AFB-4B59-A44B-35B0DC68D16D.jpeg

 

Despite their working in 'hazardous' situations, the Brush locos were not fitted with sealed electrics, so they were probably only used for haulage in open areas. Neither the master switches or the Verity controllers are sealed, the latter clearly showing arcing although a blow-out coil is fitted to attract the discharge. Also their 2.75hp motors make them only suitable for light level work.

[GoingUnderground]

Any idea when they started to build them? If it was about WW1 then is a good choice. 1945 is a bit new as the works closed in 1928.

 

Marc

The first ones used on what became the London Underground were built on 1905 and were used during the building of the Gt Northern, Piccadilly & Brompton, nowadays better known as the Piccadilly line. The Metropolitan District Railway built two in 1909. Whilst they may be somewhat larger than your needs it does demonstrate that the concept was well established several years before the date of your layout.

 

The L&Y battery electric was 1917.

 

The North Staffs one was also 1917.

 

Both before the period you want to model.

 

Spondon No. 1 was, I think 1935, a bit too late for you, possibly, but the steeple cab or camel back shape appeared on the Metropolitan Railway in 1905 with the British Westinghouse locos.

 

So I think you have plenty of scope for a freelance model, or get he High Level Kits L&Y battery loco, or scratchbuild a N. Staffs. loco.

 

As far as I know, gunpowder doesn't give off flammable vapours, so I wouldn't expect that arcing from the controller contacts would be a problem, just a matter of shuttering them to stop dust accumulation I'd have thought, as exposed contacts and switchgear was acceptable in those less H&S conscious days. 

 

 

 

We tend to think of electric traction as new, but it's not. It was first demonstrated in the UK in Brighton by Magnus Volk, and that is the oldest surviving electric railway in the world. Electric tractioncame into widespread use between 1900 and 1910, when the horse tramways were converted to electric traction.  The City & South London used it from its opening in 1890, admittedly at 500V, so not battery powered.

Edited July 1, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[MarcD]

Gunpowder is a primary explosive which means it will detonate with contact with a spark or flame. Having said that once packed in to a flame proof container or a barrel it is pretty much safe. So one it was loaded into the vans a standard loco could move it. The danger comes in the manufacturing and packing processes. Hence the isolated locations for the works.

90% of the tramway was open country as flat as a pancake.so tractive effort wouldn't be a great issue.

 

Marc

[GoingUnderground]

Gunpowder is a primary explosive which means it will detonate with contact with a spark or flame. Having said that once packed in to a flame proof container or a barrel it is pretty much safe. So one it was loaded into the vans a standard loco could move it. The danger comes in the manufacturing and packing processes. Hence the isolated locations for the works.

90% of the tramway was open country as flat as a pancake.so tractive effort wouldn't be a great issue.

 

Marc

But one wouldn't expect gunpowder to be in the immediate vicinity of the controller or motor. So I'd have thought that the risk of explosion would be very much reduced.

[MarcD]

The spark risk was a great fear to the point the all the horses used had copper shoes and the workers felt covers for their boots.

 

Marc

[GoingUnderground]

The Royal Gunpowder Mills at Waltham Abbey used battery locos from 1917, according to their website.

[MarcD]

The North Staffs BEL2 loco was built due to a lack of horses in the back end of WW1. Not an explosive environment it whole be the same requirement.

 

Marc

[DavidB-AU]

There were small petrol and paraffin locos available after WW1. Motor Rail and Kent Construction rebuilt some 40hp Simplex types as standard gauge.

 

Cheers

David

[GoingUnderground]

The North Staffs BEL2 loco was built due to a lack of horses in the back end of WW1. Not an explosive environment it whole be the same requirement.

 

Marc

I think you missed the point of my post. I thought that you wanted to know that battery powered locos existed in the time period that you are modelling. I gave the N. Staffs loco as an example of one such loco.

 

The Royal Gunpowder Mills website has some relevant facts on the use of battery locos at Waltham Abbey on its website:

Because of the risk of explosion from sparks, steam engines were not used here. Instead, four Ruston Proctor paraffin-powered locomotives were bought in 1917, each weighing 4 ½ tons and capable of hauling up to nine loaded bogie wagons, each weighing 2 tons, at up to 6mph.  Several small battery-powered electric locomotives were bought from various manufacturers from 1917 and were the mainstay of the system until closure in 1954.  Following the end of the First World War, the large Ruston Proctor locomotives were gradually sold off, but examples survive in other gauges. Houses in Beaulieu Drive occupy the site of the engine shed and main sidings."

 

So whatever risks there might have been from electrical arcing, which would only have taken place within the body of the loco itself, they clearly found ways to mitigate them, or considered the risk to be negligible.

 

The "Greenbat" battery locos were made for use in hazardous conditions such as mines where there was a risk of explosion, but according to Wikipedia, they only started making them in 1927, which I think you said was the date that your gunpowder mill closed.