Mk1 Mainline use

[russ p]

The air for the aircon comes from outside too, something that was all too apparent in the early days under heavy braking...

But the smell finds its wy into the saloon even without air-conditioning on

[dibber25]

I thought the potential ban on Mk1s on the network had more to do with the lack of anti-over-ride arrangements on the couplings and the fact that they have a rigid under frame which is capable of detaching from the body in the event of a collision? Or have those H&S fears now given way to environmental issues? (CJL)

[pheaton]

I thought the potential ban on Mk1s on the network had more to do with the lack of anti-over-ride arrangements on the couplings and the fact that they have a rigid under frame which is capable of detaching from the body in the event of a collision? Or have those H&S fears now given way to environmental issues? (CJL)

It was chris, then a recommendation was published that rakes of mk1s must not be inside a Mk2/Mk3 based vehicle on either end of the rake

[phil-b259]

Won't it affect all the Mk2s and Mk3s that currently don't have tanks fitted too?

 

Yes - which is why the Mk3s being retained by GWR and Scotrail are having retention tanks fitted.

 

The same modifications will have to be undertaken on the LNER, XC and EMT fleets.

 

Chiltern already have fitted retention tanks to theirs.

 

Its about time too - and for once I have to say I fully support all the action taken by the RMT to get this ban to happen.

 

Infrastructure workers  in this day and age should not be subjected to being sprayed by atomised raw sewage (or have to work on equipment covered in the stuff) - which can gives some very nasty health complications. That applies just as much from Franchised TOCs or a bunch of enthusiasts out for a jolly.

Edited July 6, 2018 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

It might be voluntary but there is nothing to stop NR increasing the access charges for using toilet dumping stock in the future.

 

The point is that traditional 'dump toilets' are a very real health hazard to trackside staff. We don't let road coaches, aeroplanes or boats discharge the contents of their toilets so as to present a health hazard to passers by - and neither should trains.

 

NO AMOUNT OF MONEY compensates for the health risks (as far as I know whether you get Gastroenteritis has no bearing on how much money your employer gets) and anyone who suggests such a thing can stuff their money up their own arse as far as I am concerned.

[phil-b259]

Its definitely fake news, its a voluntary code of practice rather than being compulsory for mk1 operators, you don't have to sign it if you don't want to and WCRC have already declined.

 

In which case its about time someone had the balls to say to WCR "Right you have 5 years to come up with a solution or your coaching stock is banned from the national network". As others have indicated there are plenty of solutions out there if you are prepared to be innovative (e.g. some kind of adapted canal boat solution).

Edited July 6, 2018 by phil-b259

[Sheffield]

Will this ban on transport dumping out untreated "waste" apply to horse drawn carriages? Will horse riders have to clear up after their animals, as dog owners are expected to do?

[Zomboid]

There is simply no place in 2018 for dumping raw sewage into someone's workplace. It's really no different to someone defecating onto a desk - and that is clearly not acceptable.

 

So I hope there is a solution for mark 1s to be fitted with tanks, and that the use of non-retention toilets is banned after a reasonable time to allow them to be fitted.

[Boris]

In which case its about time someone had the balls to say to WCR "Right you have 5 years to come up with a solution or your coaching stock is banned from the national network". As others have indicated there are plenty of solutions out there if you are prepared to be innovative (e.g. some kind of adapted canal boat solution).

Don't shoot the messenger feller, I didn't have to make the post at all.  It's a bit off laying into people who are just putting the facts on the table.

[royaloak]

The point is that traditional 'dump toilets' are a very real health hazard to trackside staff. We don't let road coaches, aeroplanes or boats discharge the contents of their toilets so as to present a health hazard to passers by - and neither should trains.

 

NO AMOUNT OF MONEY compensates for the health risks (as far as I know whether you get Gastroenteritis has no bearing on how much money your employer gets) and anyone who suggests such a thing can stuff their money up their own arse as far as I am concerned.

Uh, I was supporting you, the point was NR will increase the access charges for dump coaches to such an extent that it would be more cost effective to fit the tanks.

 

Dump toilets should have been phased out years ago.

[phil-b259]

the point was NR will increase the access charges for dump coaches to such an extent that it would be more cost effective to fit the tanks.

 

 

While it would be nice to think that would work, given the way the Charter industry makes a masive fuss about increased costs 'killing' the while business (and all the tourist money generated by thoise they transport to Bath or wherever) I have my doubts about the effectiveness of such a plan.

[phil-b259]

Don't shoot the messenger feller, I didn't have to make the post at all.  It's a bit off laying into people who are just putting the facts on the table.

 

 

Uh, I was supporting you

 

Apologies Gents, but given the last bout of gutrot I had was such that I wouldn't have wished it on my worst enemy, I do have strong feelings on the subject of raw sewage discharges.

[rodent279]

Having spent 2 hrs in a ditch marshalling a race, and subsequently going down with pneumonia, I can vouch for the health hazards-although that was a combination of mud and "cow mud"!

 

The only surprising thing in this is that it's taken so long to get the practice of dumping waste on the track banned!

[Boris]

The only surprising thing in this is that it's taken so long to get the practice of dumping waste on the track banned!

I think the reason is economic rather than anything altruistic.  When NR change the goal posts I believe they have to foot the costs (or a portion) for conversion work on stock, the amount of stock with track emptying bogs has reduced significantly over the years to the point where the cost isn't quite so much any more.

[woodenhead]

NYMR fitting retention toilets, funded by Network Rail

https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

 

It also mentions a deadline, does that mean all preserved lines must have them or just those who's coaches go onto NR lines line the NYMR.

[Titan]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

NYMR fitting retention toilets, funded by Network Rail

https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

 

It also mentions a deadline, does that mean all preserved lines must have them or just those who's coaches go onto NR lines line the NYMR.

 

I expect it is just those that venture out on to NR.  Whilst dumping on to the ground at 25mph is still not a great idea, it won't be half as bad as the atomising spray it everywhere effect of dumping at 75mph+, so probably not worth the expense.  Also another good reason to make sure the preserved lines adhere to 25mph max...

[Zomboid]

Most preserved railways don't have runs as long as the NYMR, and would be able to just lock/ remove/ somehow disable the on-train toilets without serious inconvenience to anyone.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

NYMR fitting retention toilets, funded by Network Rail

https://www.nymr.co.uk/news/nymr-on-track-with-retention-tank-project

 

It also mentions a deadline, does that mean all preserved lines must have them or just those who's coaches go onto NR lines line the NYMR.

Thats a super complicated looking loo…

 

They must be expecting some industrial sized business.

 

In Thailand they had the solution back in 2003… just open the door, lock yourself in,   do your business in an oil drum, then put some sand on top of it for the next person.

 

End of line, roll out the drum.

Edited July 8, 2021 by adb968008

[47513]

The NYMR picture appears to show a vacuum toilet. I wonder where the power to operate such a system will come from, functional ETH isn’t common on most heritage line stock as steam locos can’t provide it. 
 

Weren’t the mark 3 sleepers built with conventional flush toilets that emptied into tanks due to their extended dwells in platforms? I think the BedPan class 317 units also had a similar set up that was subsequently removed. 
 

That would seem a much more practical arrangement for heritage lines. The point of vacuum toilets is that they use much less water, meaning smaller tanks for water and waste. This would be less of an issue on heritage lines with their lower ‘volumes’. Vacuum toilets are also horrendously complicated and would be a nightmare for heritage operations to maintain. 

[5944]

9 hours ago, 47513 said:

The NYMR picture appears to show a vacuum toilet. I wonder where the power to operate such a system will come from, functional ETH isn’t common on most heritage line stock as steam locos can’t provide it. 
 

Weren’t the mark 3 sleepers built with conventional flush toilets that emptied into tanks due to their extended dwells in platforms? I think the BedPan class 317 units also had a similar set up that was subsequently removed. 
 

That would seem a much more practical arrangement for heritage lines. The point of vacuum toilets is that they use much less water, meaning smaller tanks for water and waste. This would be less of an issue on heritage lines with their lower ‘volumes’. Vacuum toilets are also horrendously complicated and would be a nightmare for heritage operations to maintain. 

Yes it is a vacuum toilet. I believe there is a small generator fitted to the vehicles to power it, though I can't find where I saw the reference to it. 

 

317s were initially fitted with CET tanks, but were made of steel. Not the best material to use! Hence their rapid removal. They have been fitted with aluminium tanks in recent years though. 

 

I have to agree, as someone who works with vacuum toilets as part of my day job, they do seem an unnecessary complication. 

[adb968008]

Portaloo solution seems a lot less complicated.

Just upgrade the fittings to a higher grade of plastic and cosmetics.

Edited July 11, 2021 by adb968008

[PatB]

On 08/07/2021 at 19:48, adb968008 said:

Thats a super complicated looking loo…

 

They must be expecting some industrial sized business.

 

In Thailand they had the solution back in 2003… just open the door, lock yourself in,   do your business in an oil drum, then put some sand on top of it for the next person.

 

End of line, roll out the drum.

It's not a completely daft idea, and, given a degree of user discipline (so not in public service, then) isn't as uncivilised as you might think. Google "composting toilet" or "dessicating toilet". Such systems are becoming increasingly popular on boats, where discharge of waste is becoming similarly unacceptable, and where a traditional marine toilet dumping overboard also carries a significant risk of sinking your vessel if it goes wrong or is misused.