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Andy Y

Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie

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22 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I can live with having to provide extra ballast, but if the loco cannot run smoothly at low speed and start/stop in DCZ without jerkiness, I would score it much lower, and an excessively high top speed from inadequate gear reduction would lead to a further lowering of my score as it further impinges on low speed performance!

 

Could I perhaps prevail upon you to test the loco in a few month’s time on DC to see if running in improves matters?  Lowspeed running is important to me. 


 

I would expect it to run a lot better when run in. I find that a decent decoder tends to mask below par off load performance when the loco is new

 

I did find that the contact wipers were not at the optimum as both sides only made contact together when the wheelsets were centrally aligned, moving one way or other they lost contact at the extremes.

Tweaked that a bit so might be better now. There was also a little residue on the wheels, that may have contributed.

I find you can usually make an out of the box loco run better with some little tweaks.

 

One of the tank vents has now come off but is not broken, seems to have been short of adhesive, the other is firmly affixed.

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Hi Keith

 

Thank you for posting such an informative summary.
 

I imagine you will be making some CV adjustments. If so I would be interested to know what you finally settled on and in particular how the loco performed at lower speed steps.

 

I was intending to fit a Zimo (MX617) plus some form of SA. I suspect there will not be enough room for a full fat Supercap and I will have to settle for a few tantulum?


I only just saw your second post......dirty wheels and faulty pick ups wouldnt help......it so annoys me when this happens,all too often, on new locos.

 

Thanks again for posting....enjoy your new loco

 

John

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Best to run a loco in a dc - a Bachmann train set controller and an oval of Kato Unitrak on the floor (preferably an uncarpeted area in case something falls off) is what I use. 

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I tried to fit a Lenz Silver Direct, but it fouled the body fixing posts.  Will try a Zimo MX634, hope I have more luck.  I think (hope) it is short enough to fit in the slot.

 

    Martin

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One of my first acts on acquiring a new or secondhand loco, almost as soon as I have visually checked it over and run it to ensure it is alive, is to remove the coloured silicone grease applied in the assembly plant, clean it out as completely as I can, and re-lubricate the loco with my usual non-mineral light oil.  If the grease is not causing a problem, and to be fair it shouldn't on a loco that has only been available for a short time and cannot have spend any great period in transit or storage where the grease can harden, it will sooner or later in my experience, thickening and coagulating, picking up crud, and eventually solidifying.  The process seems unpredictable and cannot be tied to environmental conditions or usage, but periods in storage seem to make matters worse.  It might take years and I'm sure there will be people who will tell me that they have locos that have been running satisfactorily for 40 years or more with the original grease, but it will fall sooner or later. 

 

The dismantling and remantling is a good way to familiarise yourself with the loco, and to sort out any minor issues with pickups or any cleaning that might need to be done.

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1 hour ago, Martin said:

I tried to fit a Lenz Silver Direct, but it fouled the body fixing posts.  Will try a Zimo MX634, hope I have more luck.  I think (hope) it is short enough to fit in the slot.

 

    Martin

The Lenz Standard + V2 is 25mm and the end needs to go in the smokebox as the decoder is longer than Hornby's allowed space in the slot.

The spiel for the MX634 says it is 20.5mm so should fit in the slot.

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2 hours ago, john dew said:

Hi Keith

 

Thank you for posting such an informative summary.
 

I imagine you will be making some CV adjustments. If so I would be interested to know what you finally settled on and in particular how the loco performed at lower speed steps.

 

I was intending to fit a Zimo (MX617) plus some form of SA. I suspect there will not be enough room for a full fat Supercap and I will have to settle for a few tantulum?


I only just saw your second post......dirty wheels and faulty pick ups wouldnt help......it so annoys me when this happens,all too often, on new locos.

 

Thanks again for posting....enjoy your new loco

 

John

I rarely adjust more than the basic settings with decoders. I use a scale top speed of around 60mph for tank locos so I needed to reduce Vtop down from 255 to 130, Vmid I set to around 65 and Vstart to 1.

Acc & Dec I set to zero as I let Traincontroller set those. The rest I don't bother with unless the loco is playing difficult.

I used to have resort to seriously tweaked speed tables when I had TCS decoders due to their weird speed linearity, same with Digitrax decoders but Lenz & Zimo are virtually totally linear so just the basic speed settings suffice.

I have never found the use for stay alive as clean track and live frogs keeps the power on.

 

I would hardly call the wheels "dirty", it seemed like a tiny bit of oil, which showed up when I wiped a wheel with kitchen towel.

Having all pickups on wheel backs seem to be rare on the locos I purchase, most lose contact at the extreme side to side play of the wheelsets. However It only needs a slight tweak with tweezers to correct

 

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9 hours ago, melmerby said:

plenty of room for some extra ballast though as the space in the tanks isn't totally filled as on it's predecessor.

That's good.

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I'm running in my 6110 right now. A very nice model - fortunately nothing's bent, fallen off or smudged, and it looks right. Runs smoothly and quietly, but it doesn't seem to like some turnouts (Peco Setrack) on my tabletop test track, unless the turnout's rails are absolutely 100% flat - it stalls at slow speeds and hesitates at faster speeds. Pickups are all making good contact, and wheels cleaned, treads and backs. Having only 6-wheel pickup on the drivers probably doesn't help. I'm sure when I get the new Peco bullhead turnouts for the proper layout there won't be any problems...

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

Could I perhaps prevail upon you to test the loco in a few month’s time on DC to see if running in improves matters?  Lowspeed running is important to me. 


 

Following up on this I have now run the loco for about two hours so it should be nicely run in.

removed the decoder and re-fitted the blanking plug to try on DC

(Note I only have about 8' of straight track and a Bench PSU which gives out pure DC)

The running at low speeds was much improved from the out of the box, It would run slowly and reliably on about 2.2v, which was way better than when I first tried it and it needed about 3.9v to run and was jerky as well.

 

And as regards the small motor, it seems to cope very well on DCC with a load.

A lap of my layout at a scale 60mph was taking 1 min 12 secs light engine, with 5 Hornby Collet coaches at the same controller setting, it took 1min 13 seconds which includes about 30' of up gradient at an average 1:100 as well as the down section.

Edited by melmerby
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Coppercap said:

I'm running in my 6110 right now. A very nice model - fortunately nothing's bent, fallen off or smudged, and it looks right. Runs smoothly and quietly, but it doesn't seem to like some turnouts (Peco Setrack) on my tabletop test track, unless the turnout's rails are absolutely 100% flat - it stalls at slow speeds and hesitates at faster speeds. Pickups are all making good contact, and wheels cleaned, treads and backs. Having only 6-wheel pickup on the drivers probably doesn't help. I'm sure when I get the new Peco bullhead turnouts for the proper layout there won't be any problems...


I have also had a few issues..... nothing bent etc.... but in its running qualities.

 

To my mind, it needs to be heavier, the pony truck needs to be better sprung and the pick ups need to be engaged better....I thought I read that all wheels were going to have electrical pick up? Maybe that’s the Dapol one?

 

These are not major issues, just niggles that have affected my overall view - the body work is great.

Edited by Neal Ball
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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

 

To my mind, it needs to be heavier, the pony truck needs to be better sprung and the pick ups need to be engaged better.

 

Are the trucks sprung? I hadn't noticed that.

No problem with the trucks on mine, no tendency to jump off the track as the Airfix derived ones tended to.

I would agree about the weight, there was scope for a lot more mass that hasn't been taken up.

It's only about 60% the weight of the previous version, which will pull just about anything you put behind it.

Edited by melmerby

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Are the trucks sprung? I hadn't noticed that.

No problem with the trucks on mine, no tendency to jump off the track as the Airfix derived ones tended to.

I would agree about the weight, there was scope for a lot more mass that hasn't been taken up.

It's only about 60% the weight of the previous version, which will pull just about anything you put behind it.


not exactly spring - No. just a piece of metal pressing down. I feel it should better engage with the track...... I will try changing the angle of the clip to see if that keeps it on better.

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12 hours ago, Neal Ball said:


not exactly spring - No. just a piece of metal pressing down. I feel it should better engage with the track...... I will try changing the angle of the clip to see if that keeps it on better.

No springs on mine, or shown on the Hornby diagram (as far as I can see).

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I have found that the NEM pocket on the front pony truck is too far back.

I came to fit Kadees and found a #18 fouls the buffer plank and even a #19 isn't far enough forward. (I don't have any #20s as I have rarely found the need for even a #19!)

A standard tension lock loop is still behind the buffers when fitted.

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16 hours ago, Neal Ball said:


I have also had a few issues..... nothing bent etc.... but in its running qualities.

 

To my mind, it needs to be heavier, the pony truck needs to be better sprung and the pick ups need to be engaged better....I thought I read that all wheels were going to have electrical pick up? Maybe that’s the Dapol one?

 

These are not major issues, just niggles that have affected my overall view - the body work is great.

 

I have thought that Dapol did indeed specify pickups across all of its wheels, but I could (as usual) be mistaken. Given that Oxford did multiple pickups on the Dean Goods, then it's a bit of a no-brainer that Dapol will likely do something similar. 

 

Given the positive reception to the prairie, Dapol may  need something 'different' to add to their proposed model. Perhaps pickups on all 10 wheels will be a highly positive step. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

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5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I have found that the NEM pocket on the front pony truck is too far back.

I came to fit Kadees and found a #18 fouls the buffer plank and even a #19 isn't far enough forward. (I don't have any #20s as I have rarely found the need for even a #19!)

A standard tension lock loop is still behind the buffers when fitted.

That's very un-Hornby! Generally had good conformance to the NEM dimensions for coupler pocket position.

 

 I would simply not push the 'swallow tail' fully home, get the coupler set for position against gauge, and apply a dab of cyano to hold it, with the possibility of easily breaking it out later.

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

...I would agree about the weight, there was scope for a lot more mass that hasn't been taken up...

Does beg the question, 'is weight for adequate traction' on the designer's list of requirements?

 

Provided the carrying wheels are free rolling, the quoted circa 8oz mostly on the driven wheels should be more than adequate for 8 non-gangwayed plastic coaches on pinpoint axle metal wheelsets, up to a maximum gradient of 1%: is that good enough?

 

Hornby do 'dot around' a little on this. Their B12/3 (4P) is easily the heaviest current RTR 4-6-0 I have ever purchased, will take away loads which defeat their B1, B17, Castle, 7P 4-6-0s; and even such as the Thompson O1 2-8-0 which is in the 'reasonable effort' category for traction.

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1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I have thought that Dapol did indeed specify pickups across all of its wheels, but I could (as usual) be mistaken. Given that Oxford did multiple pickups on the Dean Goods, then it's a bit of a no-brainer that Dapol will likely do something similar. 

 

Given the positive reception to the prairie, Dapol may  need something 'different' to add to their proposed model. Perhaps pickups on all 10 wheels will be a highly positive step. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

I don't see what the Dean Goods has to do with a tank engine!:jester:

 

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1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Does beg the question, 'is weight for adequate traction' on the designer's list of requirements?

 

Provided the carrying wheels are free rolling, the quoted circa 8oz mostly on the driven wheels should be more than adequate for 8 non-gangwayed plastic coaches on pinpoint axle metal wheelsets, up to a maximum gradient of 1%: is that good enough?

 

 

But it is so easy to have a little more weight, it's not as if it would be difficult as on some smaller engines.

Just a little more Mazak on the main castings filling out the voids, like on it's predecessor which is something like 200g heavier.

I'll try mine with eight Hornby coaches to see whether it slips at all.

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4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But it is so easy to have a little more weight, it's not as if it would be difficult as on some smaller engines.

Just a little more Mazak on the main castings filling out the voids...

I do agree. Overall, Hornby are trending in the right direction on their steam traction models in this respect.  My last two Hornby tank engine models, L1 2-6-4T at 10oz and J50 0-6-0T at 9.5oz, are probably more what you were looking for. Both sensibly packed with cast metal ballast to place the centre of mass in the middle of the coupled wheelbase (as also the Bachmann V1/V3 2-6-2T at 10oz and Oxford's N7 0-6-2T at 10.5oz - the latter with rather more capability than its class 3 power rating requires...).

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I have been moaning for at least 6 decades that RTR locos across the board are inadequately ballasted and should pick up from all possible wheels. 

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30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I have been moaning for at least 6 decades that RTR locos across the board are inadequately ballasted and should pick up from all possible wheels. 

 

That's a long time to moan for, did anyone listen?

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If they did, nobody did much about it.  And it's been a wonderful hobby for a miserable old git like me, moaning about things that don't get fixed...

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Anyone got the secret of getting the body back on easily? I fit all types of locomotives with sound on a daily basis, but can't work out why this is being so stubborn. Sometihng catching towards the front of the locomotive.

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