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Starting in OO-SF C&L Track Questions and Shopping list...


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  • RMweb Gold

Hi All,

 

So as a beginner I've decided to dive in and start hand building my own track using C&L bits to OO-SF standards, to further this I'm off to Stevenage show on Saturday to give the nice people at C&L lots of pennies in return for lots of goodies, thus I've a couple of questions which are kinda interlinked and a shopping list... - anything I've missed?

 

Plastic or wooden sleepers and how to attach the chairs to aforementioned... Thinking of going with Plywood sleepers and glue as it's (I've read somewhere) easier to remove chairs and reposition as and when required whereas once the plastic solvents do their stuff its much more stuck! 

 

 

Shopping list: 

2 x 16.2mm 4-SF Roller Track Gauges 

1 x 15.2mm 4-SF Check Rail Gauges

1 x 4-SF Three Point Gauge 

1 x 1mm 4-SF Crossing Flangeway Gauge

Crossing Vee's - probably 1:4 and 1:6

Switchblades - short industrial paintwork so Type A

Chairs - probably 4 bolt 

Fishplates

Plywood sleepers 

Plywood crossing timbers

NiSi Bullhead Rail Code 75

Butanone 

 

Is there anything else? Planning on reading the required bits of Iain Rice's An Approach to Finescale Track Building to happier I know what I'm up to, but of course I'm not going down the soldering and rivet road.

 

Many thanks 

Ralf 

 

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Hello Ralf.

 

I've built a fair amount of 16.2mm track using Exactoscale chairs and thick sleepers with EM Gauge Soc code 75 rail.

 

However, with the phenomenal increase in the price of the plastic chairs I won't be doing any more plain track, just points and crossings.

 

With the advent of the Peco Bullhead track I can see no point (haha). Have you checked how much a yard with cost using the components you suggest?

 

I would say that building in 16.2mm is a doddle and you won't look back.

 

Some of the trackwork I built can be found in the Layouts thread under 'Falcon Road TMD'. In case it helps.

 

Make sure you use sleepers to the accepted 00 length. Makes a big difference.

 

Good luck.

 

Dave

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Hi All,

 

So as a beginner I've decided to dive in and start hand building my own track using C&L bits to OO-SF standards, to further this I'm off to Stevenage show on Saturday to give the nice people at C&L lots of pennies in return for lots of goodies, thus I've a couple of questions which are kinda interlinked and a shopping list... - anything I've missed?

 

Plastic or wooden sleepers and how to attach the chairs to aforementioned... Thinking of going with Plywood sleepers and glue as it's (I've read somewhere) easier to remove chairs and reposition as and when required whereas once the plastic solvents do their stuff its much more stuck! 

 

 

Shopping list: 

2 x 16.2mm 4-SF Roller Track Gauges 

1 x 15.2mm 4-SF Check Rail Gauges

1 x 4-SF Three Point Gauge 

1 x 1mm 4-SF Crossing Flangeway Gauge

Crossing Vee's - probably 1:4 and 1:6

Switchblades - short industrial paintwork so Type A

Chairs - probably 4 bolt 

Fishplates

Plywood sleepers 

Plywood crossing timbers

NiSi Bullhead Rail Code 75

Butanone 

 

Is there anything else? Planning on reading the required bits of Iain Rice's An Approach to Finescale Track Building to happier I know what I'm up to, but of course I'm not going down the soldering and rivet road.

 

Many thanks 

Ralf 

 

 

Ralph

 

You seem to have a comprehensive list, I think though Phil only does the standard roller gauges and the others are available from DCC Concepts, but but the bullhead not the flatbotom rail versions

 

John

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You could try working in 16.5mm but building your pointwork using EM Society clearances for smoother running. All modern RTR stock will be happy with the finer standard but some earlier stuff may have problems with flange depth catching the top of the chairs though. The 0.3mm difference in gauge will be hardly noticeable but will allow you to use ready made plain track. If you're working to tight radii it would be worth considering gauge widening on pointwork. EM Society used to recommend approx 0.5mm at 3 foot radius and their three point gauges apply it automatically. I don't know if you can get similar gauges for 16.5 or 16.2 mm gauges though.

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Hi All,

 

So as a beginner I've decided to dive in and start hand building my own track using C&L bits to OO-SF standards, to further this I'm off to Stevenage show on Saturday to give the nice people at C&L lots of pennies in return for lots of goodies, thus I've a couple of questions which are kinda interlinked and a shopping list... - anything I've missed?

 

Plastic or wooden sleepers and how to attach the chairs to aforementioned... Thinking of going with Plywood sleepers and glue as it's (I've read somewhere) easier to remove chairs and reposition as and when required whereas once the plastic solvents do their stuff its much more stuck!

 

 

Shopping list:

2 x 16.2mm 4-SF Roller Track Gauges

1 x 15.2mm 4-SF Check Rail Gauges

1 x 4-SF Three Point Gauge

1 x 1mm 4-SF Crossing Flangeway Gauge

Crossing Vee's - probably 1:4 and 1:6

Switchblades - short industrial paintwork so Type A

Chairs - probably 4 bolt

Fishplates

Plywood sleepers

Plywood crossing timbers

NiSi Bullhead Rail Code 75

Butanone

 

Is there anything else? Planning on reading the required bits of Iain Rice's An Approach to Finescale Track Building to happier I know what I'm up to, but of course I'm not going down the soldering and rivet road.

 

Many thanks

Ralf

 

In EM I have used 2 three point gauges for gauge widening in turnouts.

Edit: if I was starting today I might well have gone 4SF, although EMGS are a great bunch of folks which I would miss.

Edited by dhjgreen
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  • RMweb Gold

I agree with Dave use ready made flexi for plain track. Far too expensive to build it yourself. I found with plastic sleeper/timbers it's virtually impossible to correct any tight spots once the solvent has done it's work but with ply ones it's easy, just put a scalpel blade underneath the chair. Decide if you are going to use thin timbers 0.8mm or thick 1.06mm to make the turnouts as you will need to buy matching plain track otherwise some packing will be needed. I prefer thin as it doesn't need as much ballast and it looks like the sleepers are in the ballast rather than on it. I have a crossing filing jig sizes 5-8 if you want not too many making up, PM me.

 

Beware of two things:

 

1 if you get C&L thin sleepered flexi mine came with several lengths where the rail was put in upside down. I couldn't understand why some of my stock was riding on the chair tops!

 

2 If you buy C&L slide chairs make sure they grip the rail, I got a batch that due to a worn mould just wouldn't hold the stock rail.

Edited by Rowsley17D
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  • RMweb Gold

You could try working in 16.5mm but building your pointwork using EM Society clearances for smoother running. All modern RTR stock will be happy with the finer standard but some earlier stuff may have problems with flange depth catching the top of the chairs though. The 0.3mm difference in gauge will be hardly noticeable but will allow you to use ready made plain track. If you're working to tight radii it would be worth considering gauge widening on pointwork. EM Society used to recommend approx 0.5mm at 3 foot radius and their three point gauges apply it automatically. I don't know if you can get similar gauges for 16.5 or 16.2 mm gauges though.

 

 

Thanks for the thought Rex, trying to get my head round what that'd entail with regards gauges etc, of course it'd be 16.5mm (OO) gauge but I'd need to find something quite cunning as a 3 point gauge wouldn't I? Flangeways and Check Rails can be done with OO-SF or EM Gauges can't they? 

 

This is starting to sound like a headache! What's the best / simplest way to mix OO-SF paintwork with commercial flexi-track? That's before I weaken and decide EM is the way forward... 

 

Thanks

Ralf

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Thanks for the thought Rex, trying to get my head round what that'd entail with regards gauges etc, of course it'd be 16.5mm (OO) gauge but I'd need to find something quite cunning as a 3 point gauge wouldn't I? Flangeways and Check Rails can be done with OO-SF or EM Gauges can't they? 

 

This is starting to sound like a headache! What's the best / simplest way to mix OO-SF paintwork with commercial flexi-track? That's before I weaken and decide EM is the way forward... 

 

Thanks

Ralf

I hope this topic does not go the way of many which end up putting someone off a good solution to improved running.

 

I model in EM, however the best way seems to be ready to run 16.5 track and transition from 16.2 to 16.5 at the ends of the turnouts.

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Thanks for the thought Rex, trying to get my head round what that'd entail with regards gauges etc, of course it'd be 16.5mm (OO) gauge but I'd need to find something quite cunning as a 3 point gauge wouldn't I? Flangeways and Check Rails can be done with OO-SF or EM Gauges can't they? 

 

This is starting to sound like a headache! What's the best / simplest way to mix OO-SF paintwork with commercial flexi-track? That's before I weaken and decide EM is the way forward... 

 

Thanks

Ralf

 

 

I slightly flare out the track at each end of the turnout to match 00 flexi track, or you could chop off 3 or 4 chairs at the end of the flexitrack to merge into 00sf and just replace the chairs

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  • RMweb Gold

I slightly flare out the track at each end of the turnout to match 00 flexi track, or you could chop off 3 or 4 chairs at the end of the flexitrack to merge into 00sf and just replace the chairs

 

Now there's a  thought, never considered narrowing the plain track, thanks.

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Thanks for the thought Rex, trying to get my head round what that'd entail with regards gauges etc, of course it'd be 16.5mm (OO) gauge but I'd need to find something quite cunning as a 3 point gauge wouldn't I? Flangeways and Check Rails can be done with OO-SF or EM Gauges can't they? 

 

This is starting to sound like a headache! What's the best / simplest way to mix OO-SF paintwork with commercial flexi-track? That's before I weaken and decide EM is the way forward... 

 

Thanks

Ralf

 

Hi Ralf

You'll get a 16.5mm 3 point gauge here and yes either 00sf or EM flangeway gauge will be ok. You won't be able to use EMGS checkrail gauge though. I tend to use a pair of wheels that I know are the correct gauge. Going over to EM is obviously one answer but then you run into re-gauging. Stock is generally easy but RTR locos can be more complicated. 

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Hi Ralf

You'll get a 16.5mm 3 point gauge here and yes either 00sf or EM flangeway gauge will be ok. You won't be able to use EMGS checkrail gauge though. I tend to use a pair of wheels that I know are the correct gauge. Going over to EM is obviously one answer but then you run into re-gauging. Stock is generally easy but RTR locos can be more complicated. 

 

 

If its an 00 (16,5) 3 point gauge, its no good for 00SF. Standard 00 gauge does not require gauge widening, as this is taken into consideration in the design of the 00 gauge standards. Un like P4, EM and 00SF which requires gauge widening once the radii reduces below a specified radii 

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Hi Ralf

You'll get a 16.5mm 3 point gauge here and yes either 00sf or EM flangeway gauge will be ok. You won't be able to use EMGS checkrail gauge though. I tend to use a pair of wheels that I know are the correct gauge. Going over to EM is obviously one answer but then you run into re-gauging. Stock is generally easy but RTR locos can be more complicated.

 

Can you explain your experience of building 4SF or EM trackwork. The links in you signature, including your commercial web site do not seem to show any.
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Thanks all, I think I now see that simply one just transitions 0.3mm either (or both) at the extremes of the turnouts or the end of the adjoining flexi-track. 

 

Thanks
Ralf

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Hi All,

 

So as a beginner I've decided to dive in and start hand building my own track using C&L bits to OO-SF standards, to further this I'm off to Stevenage show on Saturday to give the nice people at C&L lots of pennies in return for lots of goodies, thus I've a couple of questions which are kinda interlinked and a shopping list... - anything I've missed?

 

Plastic or wooden sleepers and how to attach the chairs to aforementioned... Thinking of going with Plywood sleepers and glue as it's (I've read somewhere) easier to remove chairs and reposition as and when required whereas once the plastic solvents do their stuff its much more stuck!

 

 

Shopping list:

2 x 16.2mm 4-SF Roller Track Gauges

1 x 15.2mm 4-SF Check Rail Gauges

1 x 4-SF Three Point Gauge

1 x 1mm 4-SF Crossing Flangeway Gauge

Crossing Vee's - probably 1:4 and 1:6

Switchblades - short industrial paintwork so Type A

Chairs - probably 4 bolt

Fishplates

Plywood sleepers

Plywood crossing timbers

NiSi Bullhead Rail Code 75

Butanone

 

Is there anything else? Planning on reading the required bits of Iain Rice's An Approach to Finescale Track Building to happier I know what I'm up to, but of course I'm not going down the soldering and rivet road.

 

Many thanks

Ralf

your shopping list looks fine, but I think you'll need slide chairs as well Edited by Vistisen
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Hi All,

 

So as a beginner I've decided to dive in and start hand building my own track using C&L bits to OO-SF standards, to further this I'm off to Stevenage show on Saturday to give the nice people at C&L lots of pennies in return for lots of goodies, thus I've a couple of questions which are kinda interlinked and a shopping list... - anything I've missed?

 

Plastic or wooden sleepers and how to attach the chairs to aforementioned... Thinking of going with Plywood sleepers and glue as it's (I've read somewhere) easier to remove chairs and reposition as and when required whereas once the plastic solvents do their stuff its much more stuck! 

 

 

Shopping list: 

2 x 16.2mm 4-SF Roller Track Gauges 

1 x 15.2mm 4-SF Check Rail Gauges

1 x 4-SF Three Point Gauge 

1 x 1mm 4-SF Crossing Flangeway Gauge

Crossing Vee's - probably 1:4 and 1:6

Switchblades - short industrial paintwork so Type A

Chairs - probably 4 bolt 

Fishplates

Plywood sleepers 

Plywood crossing timbers

NiSi Bullhead Rail Code 75

Butanone 

 

Is there anything else? Planning on reading the required bits of Iain Rice's An Approach to Finescale Track Building to happier I know what I'm up to, but of course I'm not going down the soldering and rivet road.

 

Many thanks 

Ralf 

 

Hi Ralf.

 

Hope you don't mind if I make a few points please.

 

1. Your post needs to be in the 'Handbuilt Track & Templot' sub-directory where there are more modellers using 4SF.

 

2. Threads about 4SF generally decline into discussions on its viability or not, usually by those who don't or who  have never tried it. Some have axes to grind!!

 

3. Stick with it as you will avoid re-wheeling anything and obtain smooth running over you points and crossings. Where practical, get you B-toBs out to 14.5. ie rolling stock.

 

4. On the Handbuilt Group you may find someone willing to part with some of the original 3 point gauges.

 

5. 1mm flange gauge can be made from strips of 1mm gauge plate. Also known as G.F.S. (Ground flat stock) Easily found on eBay. OR Buy a set of feeler gauges from Halfords. Should contain a 1mm strip, You only need two short lengths. One straight and one with a slight curve.

 

6. The track I have built has last a good few years now without any trouble both with the gauge and the fixing of the plastic chairs to the wooden sleepers.

 

7. Make your transitions in the plain track.

 

8, Weather you rail first with Birchwood Casey Super Blue (clean any areas for soldering) and weather your sleepers with Precision Paints 'Weathered Wood' diluted 50:50. Almost a wash/stain.

 

Ignore the 'nay sayers'

 

Best of luck.

 

Dave

 

ps I thnk a lot of 4SF modellers will not see this thread in this sub-directory.

Edited by dasatcopthorne
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You'll get a 16.5mm 3 point gauge here

 

Hi Ralf,

 

Standard 16.5mm 00 gauge already includes 0.3mm of gauge-widening for the train-set curves, and does not need any more.

 

Those 16.5mm 3-point gauges are for the deprecated DOGA-Fine track standard (16.5mm + 1mm flangeways). PLEASE don't go there. It offers no advantage over 4-SF (00-SF) and requires you to widen the back-to-backs on all your RTR wheels. The trade is no help to modellers at all, offering such DOGA-Fine components without explaining the consequences -- C&L likewise with their 16.5mm DOGA-Fine gauges, included in their turnout kits.

 

You made exactly the right choice at the start of this topic (16.2mm + 1mm flangeways), and then as usual someone comes along and tries to put you off.

 

If you read Iain Rice's book, please ignore his suggestion to use DOGA-Fine or a variant of it. At least he's honest and explains the consequences for wheel back-to-backs. It's an old book now, but it post-dates Roy Miller's invention of 00-SF in the 1970s and could have helped so many modellers over the years if it had at least mentioned that option. 

 

More about 4-SF (00-SF) at http://4-sf.uk

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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If its an 00 (16,5) 3 point gauge, its no good for 00SF. Standard 00 gauge does not require gauge widening, as this is taken into consideration in the design of the 00 gauge standards. Un like P4, EM and 00SF which requires gauge widening once the radii reduces below a specified radii 

 

Not correct. Any 3 point gauge if used correctly has no choice but incorporate gauge widening in proportion to radius by design. The distance between the rails is irrelevant. Putting the single point of the triangle on the outer rail and fixing the inner rail between the two other points will work for any gauge unless of course the principles of geometry have gone wrong.

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Not correct. Any 3 point gauge if used correctly has no choice but incorporate gauge widening in proportion to radius by design. The distance between the rails is irrelevant. Putting the single point of the triangle on the outer rail and fixing the inner rail between the two other points will work for any gauge unless of course the principles of geometry have gone wrong.

 

Hi Rex,

 

John didn't say it wouldn't work to widen the gauge. It's for widening from DOGA-Fine (16.5mm gauge) and it's no use for 4-SF / 00-SF (16.2mm gauge). A 3-point gauge for 4-SF / 00-SF is available from C&L. It is needed only if using very sharp radii (below about 750mm/30").

 

You are not helping this topic. The OP stated that he is starting in 16.2mm gauge and you are trying to get him to change to 16.5mm gauge. Why not just accept what he has decided and is asking about?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne
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Not correct. Any 3 point gauge if used correctly has no choice but incorporate gauge widening in proportion to radius by design. The distance between the rails is irrelevant. Putting the single point of the triangle on the outer rail and fixing the inner rail between the two other points will work for any gauge unless of course the principles of geometry have gone wrong.

 

Rex

 

As Martin has said the OP is going to build in 00SF not any of the other 00 gauge variants, neither have I said the gauge will not gauge widen the track when used

 

If its an 00 (16,5) 3 point gauge, its no good for 00SF.

 

In 00SF you may need a 3 point gauge to widen the gauge if the radii falls below 30", If an 00 3 point gauge is used it would widen the gauge too much for 00SF. Many who build 00ST track have no need for a 3 point gauge as their smallest radii is larger than the radii which would need widening

 

Standard 00 gauge does not require gauge widening, as this is taken into consideration in the design of the 00 gauge standards.

 

The problem is that there are a few 00 gauge variants and you must use the correct gauge for the appropriate variant and size of rail being used, and to complicate matters further some gauges are not plastic chair compatible. As said standard 00 gauge requires no gauge widening due to the RTR design principals agreed 70 odd years ago. If using 00SF or DOGA fine then in certain circumstances gauge widening may be needed

 

Un like P4, EM and 00SF which requires gauge widening once the radii reduces below a specified radii (should have added DOGA fine)

 

There tends to be some a bit of confusion and cross pollination of information between what you need in which gauge and also which building process you use. Add this to what can be said to be limited understanding of some retailers and in some cases selling incompattable products (both gauges and components). 

 

Also in certain instances some gauges will work in other gauges, a 1 mm wing rail gauge is fine for ))SF, DOGE fine and EM gauges. An 00SF check rail gauge will also work equally well with 00 Universal. A code 75 bullhead roller gauge will also work with code 82 flatbottom rail, but a code 82 flatbottom gauge will not work on code 75 bullhead rail

 

Then I have built a simple a jig to allow an EM wing rail alignment guide to work when building an 00SF common crossing sub-assembly. It would also work for DOGA fine. (But does not work for building in situ)  

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Ralf.

 

Hope you don't mind if I make a few points please.

<SNIP>

Ignore the 'nay sayers'

 

Thanks Dave, very helpful tips there. 

 

 

If you read Iain Rice's book, please ignore his suggestion to use DOGA-Fine or a variant of it. At least he's honest and explains the consequences for wheel back-to-backs. It's an old book now, but it post-dates Roy Miller's invention of 00-SF in the 1970s and could have helped so many modellers over the years if it had at least mentioned that option. 

 

More about 4-SF (00-SF) at http://4-sf.uk

 

Thanks for your input Martin, like the 4-SF website very straightforward and simply laid out which helps in trying to avoid getting confused! Will read the bits of Rice that appears to be relevant although as it's mainly copper clad construction and I'm of course I don't need more discussion on choosing a gauge either! 

 

Thanks

Ralf

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Been away for some time now, but had a few minutes spare, so wandered in to see how life and friends are on RMweb. Had to chuckle as it’s Groundhog Day and the same old arguments crop up on 00SF.

 

Everyone has a free choice in this world and I for one are very happy building pointwork to 00SF standards. Feel free to have a wander through my own thread where 00SF features heavily. I can’t promise to get back to you immediately, but if have any questions, I’ll be happy to talk about my own experience on the dark side.....

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Been away for some time now, but had a few minutes spare, so wandered in to see how life and friends are on RMweb. Had to chuckle as it’s Groundhog Day and the same old arguments crop up on 00SF.

 

Everyone has a free choice in this world and I for one are very happy building pointwork to 00SF standards. Feel free to have a wander through my own thread where 00SF features heavily. I can’t promise to get back to you immediately, but if have any questions, I’ll be happy to talk about my own experience on the dark side.....

 

 

I see the scourge of the senior section has returned, I must admit the call of the 19th hole is always very tempting, especially when relieving you partners of the contents of their wallets   :triniti:

 

Good to see you back

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