Newbie needs help and advice please

[Clive192]

Hi all,

I’m new here so Hi

[lennie]

Hello. Clive. So what's your question ?

[michaelp]

Hello Clive

[Clive192]

Sorry, my ineptitude at using the site

 

I am returning to the hobby after 20 years. I am  planning a large 18 x 15 foot layout in a just completed purpose built area. The layout is at the planning stage and consists of a two track continuous circuit, through station based on Exeter Central, a 6 road and goods yard terminus, storage sidings and a branch line terminus based on Seaton Devon.

 

I am not interested in using an automated computer based system of control but might consider using an iPad as a control system?

 

My questions:-

 

1) I am considering moving to DCC control and I am currently thinking of purchasing the Guagemaster Prodigy DCC04 wireless walk around system, I have always used this brand hence considering it again. Using this system (or any other DCC system) can I for instance, have two trains running on the continuous tracks whilst I control a third loco shunting or on the branch line using one hand set or do I need a hand set per loco in use?  

 

2) I have locos from 20 years ago from Hornby, Bachmann, Lima and Airfix one or two of these have tender drive systems, as well as white metal kits which are Portiscap and XO4 powered with Romford wheels. Can I convert these to DCC or will I need to sell them on and replace with more modern models? 

 

Hope this is all clear.

 

Kind regards

 

Clive

Edited January 13, 2019 by Clive192

[Mallard60022]

Are you talking 4mm here Clive? I presume so as you mention your old loco's?

Clive, sell those loco's and get up to date DCC ready examples if you decide DCC is definitely the way you want to go.

Portescap not compatible with DCC IIRC. XO4 OK but very coarse compared to modern units.

However, maybe have a think about the cost of Decoders V the cost and time of planning/building and setting up DC control with isolation. At Exeter Central, that I know very well circa early 60s, it would be an advantage using DCC due to the complex shunting that went on, as you know. 

Control: simply, if you have a train (trains) running just for fun, you should be able to dial up another loco and operate that, but you will probably have no direct control over the runner(s) of course. I'd go for two Controllers but don't know how

Prodigy works as I use NCC. Has Prodigy got enough Amps to really control three loco's at a time and maybe with several others sitting on the layout? I'm not giving any teccy advice about DCC as I am barely able to use it myself, but I might hint at driving your points and signals through DC and not using macros on the Prodigy. In my humble opinion, if you like playing trains it is such a faff setting up/changing routes on the same controller as you use for the loco's.

Just one thing, might it nicer to have your Branch as Exmouth rather than Seaton; more authentic with those lovely Branch Shuttles using the green BR Mk ,1 5 sets?

Finally I have had a layout based on EC way back (16 x 8 with FY extension) and have plenty of prototype info if you need any.

ATB

Phil 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Nigelcliffe]

Sorry, my ineptitude at using the site

 

I am returning to the hobby after 20 years. I am  planning a large 18 x 15 foot layout in a just completed purpose built area. The layout is at the planning stage and consists of a two track continuous circuit, through station based on Exeter Central, a 6 road and goods yard terminus, storage sidings and a branch line terminus based on Seaton Devon.

 

I am not interested in using an automated computer based system of control but might consider using an iPad as a control system?

 

My questions:-

 

1) I am considering moving to DCC control and I am currently thinking of purchasing the Guagemaster Prodigy DCC04 wireless walk around system, I have always used this brand hence considering it again. Using this system (or any other DCC system) can I for instance, have two trains running on the continuous tracks whilst I control a third loco shunting or on the branch line using one hand set or do I need a hand set per loco in use?

Not a good choice given your interest in adding an iPad to the equation. 

 

Gaugemaster don't design/make their system (unlike their DC controllers), its a badge-engineered job on a Model Rectifier Corporation of the USA product.   Gaugemaster offer support in the UK for products with their badge on it. 

Unfortunately, computer interaction control options (which includes an iPad) for MRC products are poor, with few choices and historically poor support.   Pick something else if you're thinking of adding an iPad into the mix.

 

Regardless of system vendor, you don't *need* one handset per train running, you can set some off running and leave them to it.  BUT, there comes a time when you can't retrieve the train running on its own fast enough to deal with it.   So, there is a compromise in handset numbers, trains running, number of operators, and nature of layout.   Your iPad would be good for this situation - several mainline trains onscreen, and a handset for local shunting or local trip working.  But, that brings us back to system choice. 

 

 

2) I have locos from 20 years ago from Hornby, Bachmann, Lima and Airfix one or two of these have tender drive systems, as well as white metal kits which are Portiscap and XO4 powered with Romford wheels. Can I convert these to DCC or will I need to sell them on and replace with more modern models?

With the older XO4 motors, provided the magnets are OK and the current consumption isn't too high (sign of a motor failing), they should be fine.  Portescaps are fine with quality decoders.  In both cases, I'd say "fit a Zimo decoder", but I'd say that for most situations because they're right at the top of decoder quality, prices reasonable, and a vast number of settings to adjust to control different motor types.  There's even stuff in the Zimo manuals for coreless motors, such as the Portescap. 

 

But modern models are a LOT better quality than they were back then.   So, you might find that anything new vastly outclases an old Lima etc.. from way-back, in both running quality and appearance.

 

 

 

(Mallard is completely wrong about Portescaps and DCC - the motor in a Portescap unit is a standard Swiss coreless motor in a nice gearbox.  Any decoder with a decent high frequency control circuit can run them (which is most decoders on sale).  The better DCC decoder makers give specific advice and settings relevant to such motors.  ). 

 

 

- Nigel

[JST]

I have converted a number of older Bachman, Airfix, Wrenn, Lima and Hornby tender drive locos mainly for sentimental reasons. They all work but the Bachman split chassis locos with the can motors are better than the others. i have some new locos and there is no doubt they are better.

If you decide to convert older locos, check their current draw first before fitting a decoder. The motor may require re-magnetising and possibly an armature rewind. I used decoders from Gaugemaster and Digitrax which have a current handling max of 1.5 and 1.8 amps respectively.

[Mallard60022]

Not a good choice given your interest in adding an iPad to the equation. 

 

Gaugemaster don't design/make their system (unlike their DC controllers), its a badge-engineered job on a Model Rectifier Corporation of the USA product.   Gaugemaster offer support in the UK for products with their badge on it. 

Unfortunately, computer interaction control options (which includes an iPad) for MRC products are poor, with few choices and historically poor support.   Pick something else if you're thinking of adding an iPad into the mix.

 

Regardless of system vendor, you don't *need* one handset per train running, you can set some off running and leave them to it.  BUT, there comes a time when you can't retrieve the train running on its own fast enough to deal with it.   So, there is a compromise in handset numbers, trains running, number of operators, and nature of layout.   Your iPad would be good for this situation - several mainline trains onscreen, and a handset for local shunting or local trip working.  But, that brings us back to system choice. 

 

 

With the older XO4 motors, provided the magnets are OK and the current consumption isn't too high (sign of a motor failing), they should be fine.  Portescaps are fine with quality decoders.  In both cases, I'd say "fit a Zimo decoder", but I'd say that for most situations because they're right at the top of decoder quality, prices reasonable, and a vast number of settings to adjust to control different motor types.  There's even stuff in the Zimo manuals for coreless motors, such as the Portescap. 

 

But modern models are a LOT better quality than they were back then.   So, you might find that anything new vastly outclases an old Lima etc.. from way-back, in both running quality and appearance.

 

 

 

(Mallard is completely wrong about Portescaps and DCC - the motor in a Portescap unit is a standard Swiss coreless motor in a nice gearbox.  Any decoder with a decent high frequency control circuit can run them (which is most decoders on sale).  The better DCC decoder makers give specific advice and settings relevant to such motors.  ). 

 

 

- Nigel

 

Well thank for that....it is what I have been told many times and I had not been informed differently in the meantime and I did say IIRC. Maybe let me know that I was wrong a little less harshly if you wouldn't mind.

However, I have a kit built loco that Tony Wright has given me and he said that he would have to change the motor as it was not DCC compatible...…..perhaps that motor does not need replacing if I want to keep the loco and get it chipped?

Phil

[Nigelcliffe]

Well thank for that....it is what I have been told many times and I had not been informed differently in the meantime and I did say IIRC. Maybe let me know that I was wrong a little less harshly if you wouldn't mind.

However, I have a kit built loco that Tony Wright has given me and he said that he would have to change the motor as it was not DCC compatible...…..perhaps that motor does not need replacing if I want to keep the loco and get it chipped?

Phil

 

Sorry, very over strong in language on my part.

 

There is a persistent and wrong idea which kicks around DCC which says Portescaps and/or coreless motors don't work with DCC. 

It probably originates with the mostly correct idea that small coreless motors can be overheated and damaged with crude low-frequency PWM feedback circuits, of the type which date from the 1970's, with typically DC model train controllers using the method running at 50hz from the mains frequency - the designs were effective on big heavy motors, like those used in Hornby Double-O three-rail models. 

Some very early DCC chip designs had low frequency PWM circuits, with the same potential issues.  

 

DCC chips use PWM for driving the motor, but just about everything on sale runs at a higher frequencies, typically 10kHz or more.  Some run at 40-50kHz.  Those frequencies are fine, they don't cause overheating damage to the motors.  The better decoder makers document settings for coreless Maxon and Faulhaber motors, which are the most common small Swiss coreless motors.  

 

As for your kit built model, the only problem is isolating the motor from the pickups - with a metal bodied loco there is a greater risk of short circuits through the body, but its effectively the same as any other conversion.  Then pick a decoder suited to the motor. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Mallard60022]

Sorry, very over strong in language on my part.

 

There is a persistent and wrong idea which kicks around DCC which says Portescaps and/or coreless motors don't work with DCC. 

It probably originates with the mostly correct idea that small coreless motors can be overheated and damaged with crude low-frequency PWM feedback circuits, of the type which date from the 1970's, with typically DC model train controllers using the method running at 50hz from the mains frequency - the designs were effective on big heavy motors, like those used in Hornby Double-O three-rail models. 

Some very early DCC chip designs had low frequency PWM circuits, with the same potential issues.  

 

DCC chips use PWM for driving the motor, but just about everything on sale runs at a higher frequencies, typically 10kHz or more.  Some run at 40-50kHz.  Those frequencies are fine, they don't cause overheating damage to the motors.  The better decoder makers document settings for coreless Maxon and Faulhaber motors, which are the most common small Swiss coreless motors.  

 

As for your kit built model, the only problem is isolating the motor from the pickups - with a metal bodied loco there is a greater risk of short circuits through the body, but its effectively the same as any other conversion.  Then pick a decoder suited to the motor. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks mate. Just getting a bit touchy about being pounced on on RMW, (despite my IIRC riders), for not being correct and you were the last straw on a rather fraught afternoon. Thanks for the heads up anyway and I shall now have pleasure in telling the naysayers that what you have told me is the way to go. I'm pleased actually as the Spamcan that was TW's is a beauty, if not correctly named/numbered for the particular cab width build that it is, and I was considering returning it to him without purchase!

Your suggestion is top end Decoder then; Zimo any good?

Apologies Clive for off topic bit here.

Phil

[Ron Ron Ron]

......I am not interested in using an automated computer based system of control but might consider using an iPad as a control system?

 

 

 

Not a good choice given your interest in adding an iPad to the equation......

 

 

....Unfortunately, computer interaction control options (which includes an iPad) for MRC products are poor, with few choices and historically poor support.  .........

 

 

 

MRC's history regarding computer interfaces, isn't very sparkling, however, If only wanting to use an iPad (or iPhone) as an extra control throttle, then MRC produce the Prodigy WiFi  interface.

 

 

A rebadged version is sold by Gaugemaster as the DCC05 Prodigy WiFi.

 

This module will allow the use of the WiThrottle iOS app on an iPad, or iPhone, without the need for any computer, or computer software package.

 

For Android devices, the JMRI Engine Driver app can be used instead.

 

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/prodigy/DCC05.pdf

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/articles/product-spotlight/prodigy-wifi-ios.html

 

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

Thanks mate. Just getting a bit touchy about being pounced on on RMW, (despite my IIRC riders), for not being correct and you were the last straw on a rather fraught afternoon. Thanks for the heads up anyway and I shall now have pleasure in telling the naysayers that what you have told me is the way to go. I'm pleased actually as the Spamcan that was TW's is a beauty, if not correctly named/numbered for the particular cab width build that it is, and I was considering returning it to him without purchase!

Your suggestion is top end Decoder then; Zimo any good?

Apologies Clive for off topic bit here.

Phil

 

Glad that's sorted, didn't want to cause offence.  

 

If its a Portescap in the model, then the current draw will be negligible, so a small decoder will run it.  Non-sound, I'd be tempted to use a small Zimo such as the MX622 which is available with wires for £20.  Or there are slightly larger Zimo's for about the same price.   For sound, then if there is space, go up a size for the more powerful sound amplifiers in standard sized decoders from either Zimo or ESU.  For sound I'd be tempted to wait to see what the ESU V5 decoders are like, and whether anyone has a good suitable sound project.  Those decoders are supposed to be with retailers within a month or so. 

 

With either sound or non-sound, I'd also fit a stay-alive, even with all the wheels on the loco and tender picking up.  It evens out the power, if there are any microscopic drops in pickup they are not seen at the decoder.  It makes a tiny positive difference to running quality - a good model is worth fitting the best possible solutions.