Sprog II v3 Problem - No track volts

[highpeakman]

I have a home made loco test/decoder set up rig that I put together. It comprises an old Samsung Netbook N130 running Decoder Pro, a Sprog II v3 and a rolling road test track. 

The Netbook runs W10 (1803). 

It has worked successfully for a couple of years and, previously, with an earlier type of Sprog.

I went to use it today and it was obviously not working - last used three weeks ago - no problems. 

I have updated Decoder Pro and checked the USB drivers but no apparent problems. 

Edit: Definitively on the right COM port.

I haven't, as yet, tried to update the firmware in the Sprog.

 

The Power light on the Sprog is on (12v confirmed at input). The USB light is on. But no output volts (TrA and TrB) at all. Even disconnected from track feed.

Edit: I assume that even if there is a software fault then there should still be volts on the track output?

 

I suspect that the Sprog itself has failed for some reason but if anyone has any helpful suggestions about anything else that may cause this then I would appreciate the help. Thank you.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by highpeakman

[Izzy]

I’d suggest checking the preferences. Sometimes, for no apparent reason, Decoder Pro can revert to internal programmer rather than the Sprog. You can usually tell because at the bottom of the main window it will say that the Sprog is off-line, ( in red). If this is the case it just needs the preferences re-setting to the Sprog and DP re-booting. Given all the Sprog lights are on this is the most likely scenario.

 

Izzy

[highpeakman]

Izzy

Thanks for your response.

DP shows in green that Service Mode Programme Sprog DCC is online in green.

However I note that, next to it, it says in red that No operations Mode programmer is available. Would that produce this problem?

Also Programmer Status is Idle.

Don

[highpeakman]

Izzy

Sorry, should have asked which part of preferences?

Connections are set to Sprog.

Is there something else to check?

Don

[highpeakman]

Connection defaults set to Sprog.

[Izzy]

That indicates the sprog is connected correctly. It says no operations mode because the sprog isn’t in command station mode, which of course you set through preferences, nor is a throttle active/switched on. At this stage you should only have the one steady light on the sprog, and be able to read a loco placed on the program track, where upon the two lights will flash.

 

Stating the obvious here, but if you want to run a loco via a throttle in this mode you do need to switch the power on after bringing a throttle up and entering the loco number. I am saying this because I have forgotten to do this... and wondered why the loco wouldn’t move. I have also entered a number but failed to press ‘set’.  I just blame old age..........!

 

Izzy

[highpeakman]

17 minutes ago, Izzy said:

That indicates the sprog is connected correctly. It says no operations mode because the sprog isn’t in command station mode, which of course you set through preferences, nor is a throttle active/switched on. At this stage you should only have the one steady light on the sprog, and be able to read a loco placed on the program track, where upon the two lights will flash.

 

Stating the obvious here, but if you want to run a loco via a throttle in this mode you do need to switch the power on after bringing a throttle up and entering the loco number. I am saying this because I have forgotten to do this... and wondered why the loco wouldn’t move. I have also entered a number but failed to press ‘set’.  I just blame old age..........!

 

Izzy

 

Thanks again Izzy.

It must be old age indeed!!

I thought I had done what you suggest but maybe not.

I really have no idea what has just happened but initially nothing happened at all. I then restarted DP and it suddenly identified correctly the loco on the test track and everything is now working correctly. 

Now, I have restarted several times previously this afternoon and rebooted the computer, etc, etc to no avail but, and I honestly have no idea what is different this time, and, as far as I know, have not changed any settings but all is now working correctly.

I have a voltage indicator on the track output of the Sprog and it would not light with or without a loco on the track which it does now. Power presence indication on the track by that (and volt meter) was not previously showing even with a green light on the DP throttle (with that showing green) but is now  turning on and off correctly. Having used DP and the Sprog for some years this is still baffling me. 

However Thank you very much for your help and giving me reason to keep trying!   Much appreciated.

Regards

Don

[Izzy]

Glad it’s working again. It does often throw me when anything that normally just ‘ works’, doesn’t, that I miss the simple and obvious reasons why. So saying this and reading of your setup it does make me wonder, could there be a broken/fractured wire in the track feed from the sprog? That’s makes a connection most of the time in the right position but fails when moved a bit? It’s just a thought.

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

[highpeakman]

I have played around some more this morning but am still left baffled. 

When the throttle is open on DP with a green power indicator then it would be normal to have the power light on the Sprog flashing and my own track power indicator lit. 

Yesterday, before I posted, with the DP throttle open and with green indicator the Sprog power led was constant red and no power to the track. This was confirmed by a multi meter read at the output pins of the Sprog. 

I was in the electronics business for 50 years and, while not a qualified engineer (a mere salesman so not so "hands on" for many years) I do have a little experience of circuit testing and what to look for so gave all the connections a thorough check over and no faults in connections were found.  Not denying the possibility though as I have been around long enough to accept my own limitations and the law of sod. 

I suspected some kind of software problem for a long time so updated DP, updated Java and, finally, Windows. Lots of switching off and rebooting of everything with clean starts. Nothing appeared to change the situation above with no power from the Sprog. That's when I posted as, while I now thought the Sprog had failed, I still thought there was a possibility that some form of software glitch could be causing it. As I say above, after your post, I looked at the settings but couldn't see anything wrong. Yet another reboot and suddenly everything is working again! 

My conclusion is now that it was some kind of software glitch, although where I don't know, and checking the settings (hitting "save" although I hadn't changed anything may be a clue).

 

Still working this morning so I can get on setting up a loco.

 

Thanks Izzy for your response as it made me do "something" that cured it! 

[Nigelcliffe]

22 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

I have played around some more this morning but am still left baffled. 

................

I suspected some kind of software problem for a long time so updated DP, ............................

Yet another reboot and suddenly everything is working again! 

My conclusion is now that it was some kind of software glitch, although where I don't know, and checking the settings (hitting "save" although I hadn't changed anything may be a clue).

 

 

Exact cause/effect is hard to diagnose, but here's my guess....   

 

In recent times (last six-nine months) there has been a bug in JMRI which means it is very easy to accidentally set the settings for a connected device to "internal" - a setting which means nothing works as its assuming no external world (setting is on the defaults tab in preferences).   Failed startups to JMRI can even do it (think there may be a user-confirmation action in it, but its far from clear to the user what they are confirming).  

JMRI 4.14 (current release from December 2018) has some fixes to deal with this issue, but if your machine's preferences were already set to "internal" somehow, you have to get out of this setting first.  "hitting save" may well have done that change to your saved preferences. 

 

That bug has been a right pain in the neck on the JMRI support forums;  it's an unintended side-effect of a change made for other reasons,  it took a while to get noticed as the cause of the problem, and a further time to untangle. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[highpeakman]

27 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Exact cause/effect is hard to diagnose, but here's my guess....   

 

In recent times (last six-nine months) there has been a bug in JMRI which means it is very easy to accidentally set the settings for a connected device to "internal" - a setting which means nothing works as its assuming no external world (setting is on the defaults tab in preferences).   Failed startups to JMRI can even do it (think there may be a user-confirmation action in it, but its far from clear to the user what they are confirming).  

JMRI 4.14 (current release from December 2018) has some fixes to deal with this issue, but if your machine's preferences were already set to "internal" somehow, you have to get out of this setting first.  "hitting save" may well have done that change to your saved preferences. 

 

That bug has been a right pain in the neck on the JMRI support forums;  it's an unintended side-effect of a change made for other reasons,  it took a while to get noticed as the cause of the problem, and a further time to untangle. 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

Nigel

Thanks for that explanation. It certainly sounds to be a likely cause.

 

While I enjoy messing about with DCC and computers generally there are days when I really do yearn for the old days of Triang! There were still faults but they were much simpler to find!

 

Thanks again.

Don

[highpeakman]

1 hour ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

 

In recent times (last six-nine months) there has been a bug in JMRI which means it is very easy to accidentally set the settings for a connected device to "internal" - a setting which means nothing works as its assuming no external world (setting is on the defaults tab in preferences).  

 

Nigel

I just noticed that, in DP, if I go into "Preferences" to look around but not change anything. When I go to close Preferences a window comes up saying that I have unsaved changes and asks to save them - but I haven't made any changes. Is that connected with this problem?

Don 

[Nigelcliffe]

10 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

 

Nigel

I just noticed that, in DP, if I go into "Preferences" to look around but not change anything. When I go to close Preferences a window comes up saying that I have unsaved changes and asks to save them - but I haven't made any changes. Is that connected with this problem?

Don 

 

Indirectly yes, it may be part of the cause of the "internal" setting in previous releases, saying "yes" to that could cause the "internal" setting (depending on the status of external hardware).     Now, it shouldn't be an issue *if* the bug fixes in 4.14 (December 2018) dealt with the issue - the bug fix is supposed to stop changes to "internal" happening quietly and accidentally.  

 

( The detailed explanation as to what was going on gets complicated, but essentially various tools trying to be helpful, but not fully explaining actions to users, would result in the settings being "internal" - to the system that is "working", but to a real user it's not working because internal doesn't communicate with any external hardware ! ). 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[highpeakman]

16 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Indirectly yes, it may be part of the cause of the "internal" setting in previous releases, saying "yes" to that could cause the "internal" setting (depending on the status of external hardware).     Now, it shouldn't be an issue *if* the bug fixes in 4.14 (December 2018) dealt with the issue - the bug fix is supposed to stop changes to "internal" happening quietly and accidentally.  

 

( The detailed explanation as to what was going on gets complicated, but essentially various tools trying to be helpful, but not fully explaining actions to users, would result in the settings being "internal" - to the system that is "working", but to a real user it's not working because internal doesn't communicate with any external hardware ! ). 

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

 

Thanks.

I am using 4.14 now.

Yesterday I clicked on "save" but had not made any changes. Afterwards my Sprog worked but I can't claim that this was the fix. Today i clicked on "don't save" and it all still appears to work OK.

Hopefully it will keep doing so.

Thanks for your assistance.

Don

[GWR_NZ]

I have recently had a very similar issue with no tracks volts with my SPROG. Firstly I made an assumption that there was track voltage all the time i now know that is not true. While Goggling for an answer I found this thread. This gave me a hint of what my be causing the fault. I checked preferences / default in Decoder Pro and while is said SPROG I suspect it was actually set to internal. Saved settings. Decoder Pro restarted and track power was restored. Running JMRI 4.22

[highpeakman]

I am resurrecting this thread because I have just experienced exactly the same fault again, nearly 3 years on! 

 

I have been happily using my Sprog II v3 and JMRI (4.14) for all of this time without any further issues at all. However this morning I fired up the Sprog and Laptop but can't get the PC to talk to the Sprog once again. Nothing in the set up has changed since it was last used. [Apart from any Windows 10 updates]

I am getting "No Operations Mode Programmer Available" message and no volts measured out of the Sprog. I initially checked and then  replaced all interconnecting cables and checked that correct power is getting to the Sprog. Both lights are continuous red. Did lots of restarts/reboots. No change.

Tried changing COM ports from 4 to 3 - No difference.

I checked back to this thread above and decided to update JMRI hoping that might cure the problem so I am now using JMRI 4.24 and the latest Java. Further reboots, etc. of Laptop and Sprog.

Problem is still the same as described initially.

Checking "Preferences/Defaults" in JMRI that shows, that for the Sprog, the Throttles, Power control and Service Programmer are all "ticked" (but not Ops mode Programmer or Command Station or Consists). "Internal" shows nothing ticked. I am unable to change/modify any of these. That seems odd but I guess is down to lack of communication between Sprog and JMRI?.

[Using Windows 10 Pro and an i5 HP Laptop]. 

 

Has anyone any suggestions or ideas please? Thanks in advance.

[Nigelcliffe]

34 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

 

Has anyone any suggestions or ideas please? Thanks in advance.

 

Start with "device manager" in Windows, and the Sprog USB cable not connected. Look which com-port is created when the Sprog USB cable is plugged in. 
Does it indicate a com-port, and does it show up without any errors ? If not, that's the start of the problem diagnosis - something up with the driver files or USB cable.   
The com-port shown in device manager is the one to be used in JMRI's preferences:  it must be the one Windows has assigned to the device.  

 

 

- Nigel

[Crosland]

2 hours ago, highpeakman said:

 

I am getting "No Operations Mode Programmer Available"

That's normal if you are using the SPROG as a service mode programmer, i.e., with a programming track.

 

2 hours ago, highpeakman said:

Checking "Preferences/Defaults" in JMRI that shows, that for the Sprog, the Throttles, Power control and Service Programmer are all "ticked" (but not Ops mode Programmer or Command Station or Consists). "Internal" shows nothing ticked. I am unable to change/modify any of these.

 

Again, that's OK for programmer mode.

[highpeakman]

2 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Start with "device manager" in Windows, and the Sprog USB cable not connected. Look which com-port is created when the Sprog USB cable is plugged in. 
Does it indicate a com-port, and does it show up without any errors ? If not, that's the start of the problem diagnosis - something up with the driver files or USB cable.   
The com-port shown in device manager is the one to be used in JMRI's preferences:  it must be the one Windows has assigned to the device.  

 

 

- Nigel

Nigel.

Thank you very much for your quick response.

 

I have just used Device Manager as you suggest and it referred to COM4. Using Edit/Preferences/Connections I changed the port back to COM4 (It had originally been on this port, and not working, but I had changed it to COM3 to see if that would work). I then saved that setting. There was no immediate alteration to the Sprog so I turned the Sprog off, turned the laptop off (complete power down), turned the Sprog back on and then restarted the PC and JMRI. As I have done several times previously. No difference.

 

I then went to the "Programmer" and asked for the Sprog firmware version. Previously today it returned "Timed out" but I noticed this time it had returned Sprog II v3 v3.1! It was talking finally. I tried to identify the loco on the test track and that failed but I noticed that now the power button was "active" so I turned on power, picked the loco from the roster, turned on the throttle and the loco started running.

 

So now, again, everything appears to be working normally. It is very similar to last time (3 years ago) in that I am unable to explain exactly what changed to stop it working or that would allow it to work again. Yes, I changed the COM port as you suggested, but it had previously been on that port. Nothing else, that I can see, is different. 

 

I do agree that it is something to do with the drivers, etc on Windows. I had changed the USB cable so I don't think it was that. Similarly I never did get to the bottom of why it started working again last time. I am as baffled as I was before.

 

I really do appreciate your response and help though, Thank you.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by highpeakman
Added a little more text.

[Crosland]

45 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

I had changed the USB cable so I don't think it was that.

Did you plug it into a different USB port on the computer? That can cause a different COM port to be assigned.

[WIMorrison]

I would suggest unplug all your USB devices and then that you go into Device Manager in Windows and choose the option to show Hidden Devices.

 

This will probably show multiple hidden (lightly coloured) Com Ports that you have used previously. Highlight each one and press delete. Repeat this for all the ports shown. I would personally also delete any active Com Ports that show at the same time
 

Restart the computer, wait for it to settle down and reinsert the sprog cable and note which USB port (probably Com 3) and use this com port.

Edited January 7, 2022 by WIMorrison

[highpeakman]

1 hour ago, Crosland said:

Did you plug it into a different USB port on the computer? That can cause a different COM port to be assigned.

Thank you for responding.

 

Initially it was plugged into the same USB port that has always been used. The cable from the Sprog is left in place all the time and is lightly fixed on one side of the desk where the PC sits. There is only one port on that side of the PC so it is always that one. The cable is only connected when required. The laptop used is not my main PC and is not used a great deal so has little in the way of additional connections or software.

 

I use this set up on a test bench rolling road so that I can test, set up and modify locos. Therefore it does not get used every day (or even every week sometimes). For the last three years I have turned on the Sprog, plugged the USB cable in to the laptop, powered up JMRI and it has worked without issue regardless of anything else the laptop has done in the meantime.

 

This morning it didn't. Same as 3 years ago. Lots of faffing around and trying different things but actually altering nothing. Now it's working again! I think it is most likely a Windows issue of some sort but I cannot see what it is. 

 

However, when I first discovered the problem I did try connecting via different ports but that made no difference so I reverted to the one which i have always used. Note that I always reboot (full power off) when anything significant is changed.

 

I had a long career in electronics and, although I am not a qualified Engineer and know little about programming (particularly DCC), I do try to be very methodical in my approach which often solves many similar problems with computers, etc. 

 

Suggestions are always welcome so Thank you for your comments.

Edited January 7, 2022 by highpeakman

[highpeakman]

50 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I would suggest unplug all your USB devices and then that you go into Device Manager in Windows and choose the option to show Hidden Devices.

 

This will probably show multiple hidden (lightly coloured) Com Ports that you have used previously. Highlight each one and press delete. Repeat this for all the ports shown. I would personally also delete any active Com Ports that show at the same time
 

Restart the computer, wait for it to settle down and reinsert the sprog cable and note which USB port (probably Com 3) and use this com port.

 

The only other USB devices plugged into this PC are the mouse module and a WiFi module (Faster than the built in WiFi). My reply to Crosland above may explain a little of how I use this PC and the fact that it does not do many other tasks.

The Sprog is now talking and working normally again although essentially nothing in settings, or plug ins or connections have really changed.

I understand what you suggest and I agree that the problem is caused by some conflict/issue like this but I haven't been able to identify it yet. I did look around Device Manager but couldn't see anything that might obviously cause any issue. In this case it is actually using COM4.

 

Thank you very much for your suggestions and help, it is appreciated.