GWR Wagon Kits?

[TheQ]

You don't need pooling to have foreign wagons, there are picture of wagons pre WW1 at Inverness and one  of the larger  companies represented by  wagons  are GW mostly opens.

I would Suspect Highland Fish wagons were quite common visitors down south, though in small numbers compared with GW minerals..

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, WM183 said:

This conversation has really taken off; wow. I always figured that the distribution of common pool wagons would be pretty relative to the size of the company's fleet, save in places where single commodity trains (like coal) dominate - a whole different story. So I'd figured that with regard to non-mineral wagons, GWR wagons might be a bit over represented, perhaps 30% of the stock, with the remaining 70% being mostly dominated by LMS and LNER, with a handful of Southern types, with these wagons mostly consisting of opens and vans, in roughly equal numbers. Would this be fairly accurate?

 

That's what I'd go with. You're quite right about the pool proportions - in response to The Johnster's earlier comments, I'd point out that the pool was agreed by the four grouping companies in conference (enabled by the Railway Clearing House, I assume), so talk of "reluctance" is misplaced. You don't say exactly what period you're modelling but the general trend was for the proportion of vans to increase relative to opens over time, but with opens still in the majority.

 

Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1, gives the following figures at the Grouping, though I've processed them slightly:

 

LMS: 303,797 wagons - 42.2% of the total of company-owned wagons, of which 217,000 were in the pool - 45.1% of the pool and 71.4% of LMS stock;

LNER: 284,488 wagons - 39.5% ditto, 170,00 in pool - 35.3% of pool, 59.7% of LNER stock;

GWR: 87,432 wagons - 12.1% ditto, 65,000 in pool - 13.5% of pool, 74.4% of GWR stock;

SR: 36,121 wagons - 5.0% ditto, 29,000 in pool - 6.0% of pool, 80.3% of SR stock;

Joint and minor railways: 7,917 - 1.1% ditto, none pooled (the CLC accounted for just over half of this total);

PO wagons: 626,223 (1918 figure).

 

These numbers remained more-or-less constant throughout the 25 years of the Grouping era. The low proportion of LNER wagons in the pool is explained by the large number of company-owned mineral wagons in the NE area, inherited from the NER's policy of handling mineral traffic in its own wagons rather than PO wagons. The high SR proportion can probably be accounted for by the lack of heavy industry in the area it served, resulting in a relatively low proportion of special wagons.

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, TheQ said:

You don't need pooling to have foreign wagons, there are picture of wagons pre WW1 at Inverness and one  of the larger  companies represented by  wagons  are GW mostly opens.

I would Suspect Highland Fish wagons were quite common visitors down south, though in small numbers compared with GW minerals..

 

There will always be a few wagons from the major pre-Grouping companies making their way onto other companies' metals prior to pooling; I have a pet theory that any pre-pooling goods yard photo will include one Midland D299 5-plank wagon - there were over 60,000 of these by 1902, roughly 1 in 20 of all company-owned wagons at this date.

 

A post-grouping equivalent would be the LMS D1666 5-plank merchandise wagon, of which 66,000 were built in the 1920s - there's a Cambrian kit.

[Guest WM183]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's what I'd go with. You're quite right about the pool proportions - in response to The Johnster's earlier comments, I'd point out that the pool was agreed by the four grouping companies in conference (enabled by the Railway Clearing House, I assume), so talk of "reluctance" is misplaced. You don't say exactly what period you're modelling but the general trend was for the proportion of vans to increase relative to opens over time, but with opens still in the majority.

 

Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1, gives the following figures at the Grouping, though I've processed them slightly:

 

LMS: 303,797 wagons - 42.2% of the total of company-owned wagons, of which 217,000 were in the pool - 45.1% of the pool and 71.4% of LMS stock;

LNER: 284,488 wagons - 39.5% ditto, 170,00 in pool - 35.3% of pool, 59.7% of LNER stock;

GWR: 87,432 wagons - 12.1% ditto, 65,000 in pool - 13.5% of pool, 74.4% of GWR stock;

SR: 36,121 wagons - 5.0% ditto, 29,000 in pool - 6.0% of pool, 80.3% of SR stock;

Joint and minor railways: 7,917 - 1.1% ditto, none pooled (the CLC accounted for just over half of this total);

PO wagons: 626,223 (1918 figure).

 

These numbers remained more-or-less constant throughout the 25 years of the Grouping era. The low proportion of LNER wagons in the pool is explained by the large number of company-owned mineral wagons in the NE area, inherited from the NER's policy of handling mineral traffic in its own wagons rather than PO wagons. The high SR proportion can probably be accounted for by the lack of heavy industry in the area it served, resulting in a relatively low proportion of special wagons.

 

I am going with perhaps 1950 or so, quite early into the BR era, in the Welsh Valleys - specifically around Lansitrant. So hordes of mineral wagons, a large number of which will still be old PO ones, plus newer steel ones from LNER, LMS, and BR will be most of the stock I think. The remainder will be more or less dispersed among the big four (I cannot believe many were repainted in 2 years, though some of course would be) and the new build BR stock slowly coming into use I suppose.

[TheQ]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There will always be a few wagons from the major pre-Grouping companies making their way onto other companies' metals prior to pooling; I have a pet theory that any pre-pooling goods yard photo will include one Midland D299 5-plank wagon - there were over 60,000 of these by 1902, roughly 1 in 20 of all company-owned wagons at this date.

 

A post-grouping equivalent would be the LMS D1666 5-plank merchandise wagon, of which 66,000 were built in the 1920s - there's a Cambrian kit.

I think MR wagons were certainly in the pictures I've seen of Inverness.

[billbedford]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think all the railways were were reluctant to pool their stock, and l know that the LMS and Southern marked wagons they wanted returned with ‘N’, standing for ‘N’ot Pool. General merchandise wagons and vans were supposed to be ‘pool’ or ‘general user’, but specialist stock such as cattle wagons, lowmacs/loriots, bolster, bogie well and the like were excluded.  I have a Baccy LMS Medfit in late LMS livery with the ‘N’ brandings, but can’t really see how this is not general use stock, which mostly shows that I don’t know the full story. 

5

 

The non--pooled wagons tended to be those which were unlikely to find return loads. or those dedicated to specific traffic.

 

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Brake vans were not generally pooled until nationalisation, and some were kept out of pool by fair means or foul after it, particularly WR Toads, 

 

1

 

More a case of nobody else wanted brake vans without side lookouts.

 

 

[Ravenser]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think that's still missing the point of the pooling arrangements: "wagons carrying loads into even isolated branches, were likely to be LMS, LNER or S.R. wagons, irrespective of where their load originated."

 

 

On the whole they were not likely to be SR wagons - they were few and far between 

 

2 hours ago, WM183 said:

This conversation has really taken off; wow. I always figured that the distribution of common pool wagons would be pretty relative to the size of the company's fleet, save in places where single commodity trains (like coal) dominate - a whole different story. So I'd figured that with regard to non-mineral wagons, GWR wagons might be a bit over represented, perhaps 30% of the stock, with the remaining 70% being mostly dominated by LMS and LNER, with a handful of Southern types, with these wagons mostly consisting of opens and vans, in roughly equal numbers. Would this be fairly accurate?

 

The ratio I use is 8 LMS : 7 LNER : 2 GWR : 1 SR. But that excludes things like cattle wagons and specialist types (can't see many cattle wagons in the S Wales valleys but specialist steel carrying wagons would very much be in place) - those would be mainly GWR. Mineral wagons - ie coal trucks - are outside this, and arguably at least 1/3rd of the total fleet ought to be minerals, maybe more in S Wales

 

The locals will correct me if I'm wrong , but I believe 21T minerals had a particular association with S Wales coal? 

 

I think you will be building a lot of run-down PO minerals...

Edited May 16, 2019 by Ravenser

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

On the whole they were not likely to be SR wagons - they were few and far between 

 

 

The ratio I use is 8 LMS : 7 LNER : 2 GWR : 1 SR. But that excludes things like cattle wagons and specialist types (can't see many cattle wagons in the S Wales valleys but specialist steel carrying wagons would very much be in place) - those would be mainly GWR. Mineral wagons - ie coal trucks - are outside this, and arguably at least 1/3rd of the total fleet ought to be minerals, maybe more in S Wales

 

The locals will correct me if I'm wrong , but I believe 21T minerals had a particular association with S Wales coal? 

I'd estimate the proportion of minerals to be even higher, especially outside the main line from Severn Tunnel westwards; most would be private owner stock prior to Nationalisation. 

The GWR had used 20t, and then 40t, wagons for loco coal form the early part of the 1900s. Sir Felix Pole, the General Manager, started persuading the coal owners and wagon lessors to adopt the 20t type for commercial traffic, as it enable a more economical use of port facilities. 5000 wagons were built for leasing/hire to 'kick-start' the programme.

[The Johnster]

i think mineral traffic needs to be considered entirely separately from general merchandise or any other goods traffic for a South Wales layout.  By an large (there were exceptions of course) coal wagons did not appear in small local goods yards in the mining area; household coal was obtained from land sale at the pit.  Much of it was 'concession' coal in NCB days, as most households in the smaller communities had somebody working in the industry that was therefore entitled to it.  Coal went out from the pits in block loads, either to the ports for export, to an industrial consumer (especially steelworks), to coking ovens (steel industry traffic again), power stations (this is the traffic on which the 21 tonners and even 24½ tonners were common), or to big yards for onward tranmsission for light industrial or domestic use.    21 ton coal hoppers were used as well (but were probably more common in the North East), mostly in block trains for specific traffic that had the unloading facilities to handle them.  I have seen a photo of a Tondu 42xx at St Fagan's hauling a very mixed loaded coal train of about as many different sizes and shapes as there were in the 50s, I'd guess heading for somewhere like Severn Tunnel Jc where the load would be remarshalled.

 

Limestone went out from the quarries in block trains as well, mostly to the steelworks, with the building industry being supplied by road direct from the quarries by the 1950s.  Coking ovens took in block trains of coal and sent out block trains of coke, for local steelworks and the likes of Corby and Scunthorpe (which also took block coal from Radyr in short wheelbase wagons); this was a significant part of Llantrisant's work as the Beddau overs were local.  I wouldn't know what wagons it was handled in in the 50s, but by the 70s it was in the Hornby LMS type hoppers.

 

Iron ore was another feature of Llantrisant, being quarried at Llanharry nearby and worked to East Moors GKN steelworks in Cardiff, in short wheelbase 35mph hoppers, but by this time increasing amounts were being imported, mostly from Spain or Sweden.  These very busy and heavy mineral traffics were in most respects a separate world from the general goods work.  Cattle wagons did work into the valleys, as there were slaughterhouses (and glue factories) in the larger towns like Pontypridd or Merthyr Tydfil, and holding pens were provided at the goods yards, but would be rare at a small yard.  Sheep must have been delivered, or exported, in them occasionally, but I know little of it.

 

I don't think I ever saw a horse box in the area except as through traffic on the main lines (cue avalanche of photos proving me wrong!).

Edited May 16, 2019 by The Johnster