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Ralf

Building my first C&L Crossing...

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2 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

As far as I know C&L vees never have been what is commonly understood to be silver-soldered, I understood they employ a solder with only a slightly higher melting point than normal. 

 

As I can testify to, having turned a C&L V back into two pieces of rail when I tried soldering wing-rails to it once.  :mad:

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6 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

 

Hopefully the diagrams are self-explanatory. Just two oddments of rail about an inch long laid side by side with a gap between. The smaller the gap, so the harder you need to press/hit, but the more precisely located will be the bend. Make sure the rail is exactly square across them before making the bend -- a sheet of graph paper underneath helps.

 

It's looking good, but a few pointers:

 

Looking at your photo I'm not sure I can see a proper set in the diverging stock rail -- omitting the essential set is a common beginner mistake. It makes fitting the switch blades to gauge very difficult. More about all that at:

 

http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1 

 

You have filed the switch blades flat on both sides. this makes the ends very flexible and they will need to open a very long way to give sufficient clearance for the wheel flanges all along behind them.

 

 

Thank you Martin, you're right about filing both sides although I had no intention of doing so - but at least I've only done it on one blade! DOH!

 

Your quite right about the 'set' too, diagrams make perfect sense thank you. Any simple bodge - guessing it's possible by releasing the chairs on the toe end of the curved stock rail and employing some pliers? Or indeed filing the profile away edge of the stock rail. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Not much to add to Martin's post but I am curious as to the nature of the insulating fishplates(rail-joiners?) used on the common crossing turnout rails.

Having looked at the photo of the common crossing, something looks a bit wrong in that the gaps are not identical. What was the spec of the common crossing from C&L? As a quick check in the absence of a 1mm slip gauge you could try a piece of rail as it's only just under the 1mm (very  often about 0.91mm).

 

The insulating fishplates are Marcway insulating rail joiner chopped down as they're very long and fowl the chairs otherwise. 

 

The common crossing was included in a OO-SF B6 kit. A slice of 40 thou plasticard (1.016mm) will pass through between the common crossing and the wing rail on the diverging road but not on the straight road. So something seems slightly awry… 

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7 hours ago, sharris said:

 

As I can testify to, having turned a C&L V back into two pieces of rail when I tried soldering wing-rails to it once.  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_mad.gif

 

Looking through the C&L point construction instructions that come with a C&L point timbers and chairs set, it looks like C&L acknowledge they don't use particularly high temperature solder

 

"7. Solder the vee to the two pieces of copperclad... Care should be taken here - you do not want to unsolder the vee itself"

 

Oops - well, fortunately I only cocked it up it once!

 

Coming back to the set in the curved stock rail- unfortunately the C&L instructions make no mention of it - the first you see of the rail in the instructions is:

 

"9. Thread the chairs on the curved stock rail, gauge across at the switch end and glue the two chairs down.

 

10. Go to the other end and gauge across from the vee and glue the chairs parallel from the end to the tip of the vee. The curve should follow the template, but a minor alteration should not be harmful. Above all you want the curve to look natural, without any flats or dog legs. A useful tip is to use a small mirror placed on the rails and look at the reflection."

 

There is no mention of putting in a set or having the straight planing section of stock rail to match the switch rail taper - indeed they seem to imply not having either. It looks like the C&L instructions could do with an update if they want you to make points that work well.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ralf said:

about the 'set' too, diagrams make perfect sense thank you. Any simple bodge?

 

Hi Ralf,

 

It is sometimes possible to adjust the set angle slightly in situ, but I wouldn't recommend trying to create a set in situ if there is none to start with. It would be better to remove the stock rail entirely and replace it. But it's probably not worth doing for those over-long thin blades, unless you are going to remake those too.

 

I don't want to say "ignore the C&L and/or Marcway instructions", but it's difficult not to arrive at that conclusion. For your next turnout, set the stock rails as explained in the Templot topic, taking great care to check the stock gauge dimension before finally fixing the stock rail down, and before making the blades to fit. File the blades to match the planing lengths given in the diagram:

 

 http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=491&forum_id=1

 

If you first coat the rail with ink from a fibre-tip marker, it is easy to see where you are filing and the planed length. On the back of the blade just go down as far as the web at the tip. On the front, file at an angle over the same planing length to achieve a knife edge at the top of the tip. Finally bend the rail at the end of the planing to restore the running edge to a straight line. After fitting the blades, fettle the top of the blade into the stock rail using abrasive paper (from car body shops).

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

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1 hour ago, sharris said:

There is no mention of putting in a set or having the straight planing section of stock rail to match the switch rail taper - indeed they seem to imply not having either. It looks like the C&L instructions could do with an update if they want you to make points that work well.

 

Nor I suspect in the Marcway instructions, nor in some of the standard track-building texts. You do wonder if the authors actually looked at any prototype trackwork.

 

Of course the water is somewhat muddied by the way Peco do things, for low cost mass-production.

 

For their 00 turnouts, the C&L instructions could also mention that the supplied gauges should be discarded if you want unmodified RTR models to run through them.

 

No wonder it can be a struggle for beginner trackbuilders to get started. There is so much misinformation about, and the internet has made matters worse.

 

Martin.

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9 hours ago, Ralf said:

The common crossing was included in a OO-SF B6 kit. A slice of 40 thou plasticard (1.016mm) will pass through between the common crossing and the wing rail on the diverging road but not on the straight road. So something seems slightly awry… 

 

Sounds like a good case for pinging the crossing back to C&L for a replacement....

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21 hours ago, Ralf said:

Hi all, 

 

No news from Phil @ C&L re: missing points blades but have been successfully to Marcway and armed myself with lots of bits and bobs for adventures in PCB turnout manufacture but of course a quantity of rail too. So having read what Mr Rice has to say on the subject managed to produce two adequate looking point blades (adequate IMHO) and have mostly finished this turnout. Thank heavens though I invested in 3 Valorbe 6" files - bliss! I never knew that's how easy filing was supposed to be. 

 

Check rail bends were unexpectedly easy having cut too far through with the razor saw but never mind. 

 

The only issue I'm having is the roller gauge is tight between the common crossing and the wing rail when going straight ahead through the turnout - see later pictures which is where the roller sticks. I've only tried 2 random Bachmann wagon wheel sets - 1 fine, 1 won't go at all! Having played with my digital vernier it's more like 0.7mm flangeway rather than 1.0mm I think I was aiming at. BUT as it's C&L silver soldered one it pains me to alter it. Any thoughts anyone? 

 

For now I think I shall finish off the slides chairs, tidy up the check rails etc and most likely move on to a Marcway style turnout until I can somehow choose and determine a master wheelset / wagon to try with... 

 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2416.JPG.bf8a41d4bb85058fcd7c59a0b0035e9a.JPG

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2417.JPG.57345c21c98ac6df65e379ded8ec77a4.JPG

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2418.JPG.9b09d2f8552fdf6b2bafd854f950e602.JPG

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2419.JPG.87939c946bc42b7ec71229a2a2cadfb7.JPG

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2423.JPG.5b51dff1549806b4dc16640ceef6e7d5.JPG

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2425.JPG.083582b458e0c0831a0599a82fa5b4fb.JPG

 

 

One thing that I am slightly confused at is that whilst the 00SF gauge fits tightly in the gap, with the gauge having a 1 mm flangeway it would not fit into a 0.7 mm gap ?

 

No idea what solder is used in the crossovers but they have been metal, not PCB for some time. For making your own common crossings C&L sell 0.6 mm PCB. I buy 0.5 mm (1 mm for 0 gauge) brass strip from Hobby Holidays as its stronger and does not delaminate if too much heat is used

 

You need to chase Phil up on the phone over the switch blades, annoying I know but a simple polite reminder usually works 

 

As for the wheels, buy a decent back to back gauge, 00SF is far less forgiving that standard 00 gauge

Edited by hayfield

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17 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Not much to add to Martin's post but I am curious as to the nature of the insulating fishplates(rail-joiners?) used on the common crossing turnout rails.

Having looked at the photo of the common crossing, something looks a bit wrong in that the gaps are not identical. What was the spec of the common crossing from C&L? As a quick check in the absence of a 1mm slip gauge you could try a piece of rail as it's only just under the 1mm (very  often about 0.91mm).

 

As far as I know C&L vees never have been what is commonly understood to be silver-soldered, I understood they employ a solder with only a slightly higher melting point than normal. 

 

As you look to be modelling track with 2 bolt chairs (GWR?), check out Modelu 2 bolt slide chairs and the Exactoscale common crossing chairs for a better representation of a slab and bracket chair for the nose.

 

I find the Exactoscale locking fishplates (E4XX FP01) not only look far better but also do a great job in both aligning and insulating the rails

 

https://exactoscale.com/

 

Sadly no photo's on the web page

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2 hours ago, hayfield said:

One thing that I am slightly confused at is that whilst the 00SF gauge fits tightly in the gap, with the gauge having a 1 mm flangeway it would not fit into a 0.7 mm gap ?

 

Hi John,

 

That's an 00-SF roller gauge. The ribs on the 00-SF roller gauges are thinner than the flangeway gap. The roller gauges are not used to set the flangeway gap. The only gauge which is 1.0mm thick is the crossing flangeway gauge shim. That is the one used to set the gaps in the crossing, and the gaps at the check rails are created as the difference between the other gauges.

 

More about this and a diagram at http://4-sf.uk/dimensions.htm

 

If Ralf's roller gauge is jamming, it means the track gauge is tight at that spot.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited by martin_wynne

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5 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

That's an 00-SF roller gauge. The ribs on the 00-SF roller gauges are thinner than the flangeway gap. The roller gauges are not used to set the flangeway gap. The only gauge which is 1.0mm thick is the crossing flangeway gauge shim. That is the one used to set the gaps in the crossing, and the gaps at the check rails are created as the difference between the other gauges.

 

More about this and a diagram at http://4-sf.uk/dimensions.htm

 

If Ralf's roller gauge is jamming, it means the track gauge is tight at that spot.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

Thanks, what I was trying to say is that the 00SF  gauges would not fit into a 0.7 mm flangeway gap, accept they may be thinner than the flangeway gap, but not by that much

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Photo enlargements are so cruel especially when enlarged from the actual size

 

723.jpeg.679b47cdcc546f210232c55153cba8c8.jpeg

Exactoscale fishplates in place, middle right is what Stephen is refering to, an Exactoscale "A" position slab and bracket chair

 

724.jpeg.cba19f3ef8bb408a6847b2af56078500.jpeg

 

The fish plates are quite fragile, but strong enough to hold the rails in place whilst the solvent holding the chairs to the timbers set and take over the job. Also act by insulating the common crossings from the switch rails

 

725.jpeg.2ede6ee9b8b8062086a35b76c890a7f0.jpeg

The fishplates come in packs of 48. Far neater than rail joiners and can be bought in cast metal packs of 10 as well, 

 

Edited by hayfield
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Having given the photo another good looking at I'd say that not only are the flangeways of different widths but also the main crossing rail doesn't look to line up too well with the vee.

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5 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Having given the photo another good looking at I'd say that not only are the flangeways of different widths but also the main crossing rail doesn't look to line up too well with the vee.

 

That ( doesn't look to line up too well ) may well be the reason the gaps differ

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1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Martin

Thanks, what I was trying to say is that the 00SF  gauges would not fit into a 0.7 mm flangeway gap, accept they may be thinner than the flangeway gap, but not by that much

 

My fault I think guys… SO what I was trying to say is this:

 

On the diverging road the roller gauge and with a little persuasion a 1mm plasticard shim runs through - NO PROBLEM.

 

On the straight road the roller gauge sticks as shown below - the 'flange' being c0.88mm on the gauge, whereas my 1mm shim of plasticard sticks much much earlier… 

IMG_2440.jpeg.9a8591f734aff07142ee6016d7af3026.jpeg

 

 

IMG_2438.jpeg.75b9b92521c70a8cbda39c232d4a41fb.jpeg

 

 

 

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

I find the Exactoscale locking fishplates (E4XX FP01) not only look far better but also do a great job in both aligning and insulating the rails

https://exactoscale.com/

 

Sadly they're not taking orders or reading e-mails from 3rd June - 15th July - anywhere else stock them? Have tried the re-opened EMGS Store but no luck there. 

 

Think I'd best go and buy some more chairs and soon try again using the knowledge gained here to my second one which will include making my own crossing and wing rails then I can only blame myself for the shortcomings! 

 

 

Many thanks

Ralf 

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I usually get my 4mm scale chairs from Scalefour but you might need to be a member. As for common crossings etc, there are other sources of supply....

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1 hour ago, Ralf said:

Sadly they're not taking orders or reading e-mails from 3rd June - 15th July - anywhere else stock them? Have tried the re-opened EMGS Store but no luck there. 

 

Think I'd best go and buy some more chairs and soon try again using the knowledge gained here to my second one which will include making my own crossing and wing rails then I can only blame myself for the shortcomings! 

 

 

Many thanks

Ralf 

 

Ralf - PM me your address, and I'll send you a few to play with.

 

 

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I thought the move away from C&L was to improve the availability of parts, well you cannot blame a company shutting down whilst on holiday plus I have dithered making an order for some 7 mm scale items. My own fault

 

Sadly the EM Gauge society seem to have either low or out of stock against many of the Exactoscale items, I must admit personally being a bit disappointed with the society at the moment, and thinking of changing membership to the Scalefour society. At least C&L had stocks of said items even if it was a bit tedious at times getting it from him. I will have to be patient for the few bits I require

Edited by hayfield

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On 13/06/2019 at 13:21, Stephen Freeman said:

I usually get my 4mm scale chairs from Scalefour but you might need to be a member. As for common crossings etc, there are other sources of supply....

Having just checked, yes membership is required. Unfortunately they do not sell the long version of the slide chairs, so for 00 it has to be either Exactoscale themselves or if they ever have any, EMGS.

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