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Crowdfunding: Reclaim via Credit Card

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In any event DJM were not obliged to supply anything until all four instalments had been paid so any non delivery clock shoukd only start after the final payment, or the liquidation if earlier (as in this case)

 

 

I have not checked Paypal's terms but do they say anything about payment by instalment?

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Hi All, would appreciate a little advice/experience of others.

 

I have started the process rolling, on attempting to get a claim in with the LLoyds Credit Card that I paid for:

 

3 x £30 deposits and a 1 x £30 deposit.  I explained that these were deposits for a product totalling £120 each, and that the length of time was due to the processes involved in the manufacture of model railway products, and that it was only in June that the company went into administration, and it was only at that time that it became apparent that the product would not be delivered.

 

I have received a response (they do not even mention the £30 deposit), saying that they cannot help me for the following reasons:

-Due to the time since the transaction was made

-Having reviewed this transaction under Section 75 liability, we are unable to consider your claim

 

Just wondering if they are trying to fob me off (I think so).  They have not asked me even for any invoices, data regarding DJM etc.

 

Would the correct recourse be to advise them that I could not advise them earlier, as the company was providing updates and that until the company went into liquidation, it was the first occasion that I could reasonably be aware of the failure to receive the products that were ordered and secured with a deposit.  Therefore the "clock" should run from this point in time.  

 

I suppose the other point would be - How could I "reasonably" make any claim earlier, as if I had requested a claim back just before the time limit, then you would have refused it because the product and business was a going concern.

 

Any advice and suggestions most welcome, as would like to put the best argument to them to consider.

 

Many Thanks in anticipation,

 

Best Regards,

 

C.

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My advice;

 

Write to them as per your 6th paragraph.

Don't confuse by introducing your "other point"

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Another credit card issuer that doesn't know (or pretends not to know) the claim rules. 

 

Here's what the credit card industry's own trade body says:    

 

"You should make a [Section 75] claim within six years of buying the goods or services or, in cases of non-receipt, when you were due to receive them"

http://www.theukcardsassociation.org.uk/individual/section-75-for-credit-card-purchases.asp

 

Note too that the 120 day limit for claims often cited by credit card companies applies only to chargebacks. The same trade body says that this limit applies "from when you made the transaction or when you were due to receive the goods or services".

 

In your case I would write back to them clarifying that you are making a Section 75 claim and are well within the time limits to do so. 

 

Edited by dpgibbons
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Update from me; still no luck with debit card chargeback through Nationwide for a couple of deposits - they are sticking to the 120 day limit from point of purchase so are not pursing the claim nor refunding me.

 

Anyone else in the same situation with nationwide? Or been successful with them?

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As per my post above yours, you should challenge their interpretation of the chargeback time limit. Clearly you were not due to receive the goods at time of purchase nor indeed prior to the announcement of DJM's liquidation, so the latter event is logically the point at which the claim clock started ticking. 

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Try arguing as per dpgibbons suggestion. If that fails I suggest asking them for their "final response" which if unsatisfactory you can then refer to the financial ombudsman for determination.  There are enough precedents on this thread to support your case.

 

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/how-to-complain

Edited by Colin_McLeod
Edit to give link to Financial Ombudsman

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On 09/08/2019 at 22:14, dogbox321 said:

Hi All, would appreciate a little advice/experience of others.

 

I have started the process rolling, on attempting to get a claim in with the LLoyds Credit Card that I paid for:

 

Deliberate deletion for space reasons

 

I have received a response (they do not even mention the £30 deposit), saying that they cannot help me for the following reasons:

 

C.

Hi C - I think you just need to persevere on this - your situation is virtually identical to what mine was a few weeks ago when I had mentally written the money off as a crowd funding "fail"..

 

I followed the advice on this forum  - relevant posters are almost too many to mention but they posted at some length earlier in this forum. It would be invidious to pick one out but you can see who they are and in passing thank you very much to all those who offered advice - I could not have come out with a success without it.

 

So to my experience - ....... I found the approach of polite but persistent reasonableness paid off for me.

Following card company telephone notification pushback,  I first of all registered as a creditor with the liquidators

 

I then reverted to royal mail and sent the Card company an explanatory covering letter and a mass of documentation that covered the key points....

1. A copy of the payment out of my credit card account

2. Proof this was a deposit for items in excess of £100  (invoice, receipt and website proof)

3. Proof that DJM were bullish on development (newsletters) right up to the point they went into liquidation - hence timescale between payment and claim

4. That  I wasn't going to get the items  because DJM had gone into liquidation without warning, and that there was little chance  of a refund because his debts and assets were disproportionate (Receiver documentation) and therefore I was asking for Sect 75 repayment to be applied

 

There was then a bit of multiple to-ing and fro-ing ( including a card company questionnaire) over the following 4 weeks in which I pointed out answers to their questions were mostly in the relevant parts of the documentation  that I had sent them by Royal mail,  (apart from having to add that I paid direct from my C/Card to DJM via his Paypal business account because that was the only way at the time we could pay.)

 

The final comment to me was that paying up front for something not yet in production was a bit risky - to which I explained that in the current era of small scale runs for specialist items of limited interest it was now actually quite common in this industry for manufacturers to take deposits to ensure that there was commitment from customers and that some quite well-known national organisations (not a million miles from northern England?)  were now doing this.

 

Following this they paid me (some 4 weeks after my initial royal mail letter) -  TBH I am still unclear as to whether this was a good-will payment or Sect 75 - the actual wording was hazy but the result was essentially the same - so I thanked them accordingly.

 

So follow the advice of this forum - and for goodness sake do not muddy the waters by mentioning crowd-funding -(TBH IMO FWIW this wasn't  really crowd funding as is normally accepted it was DJM taking staged deposits for the final product as he (potentially) achieved milestones).

I hope that helps - keep fighting.... but politely !!:D

 

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Short answer is, don’t pay by PayPal if you don’t have to. 

 

Like most super-shiny bright new ideas, it offers a measure of convenience and security in response for a LOT of rights in return. It’s rather like budget airline tickets; they definitely have their uses, but you need to take a full view of the situation. 

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On 09/08/2019 at 22:14, dogbox321 said:

Hi All, would appreciate a little advice/experience of others.

 

I have started the process rolling, on attempting to get a claim in with the LLoyds Credit Card that I paid for...

 

It sounds as though you might be informing them of the circumstances in writing?  Personally, I would recommend a telephone call to your credit card provider.  I called both Barclaycard and MBNA and both have dedicated lines for disputes, so I'd imagine that Lloyds must offer similar?  In both instances it was a matter of a few questions and details as they request at the time and 15 minutes later, all done!  The procedure for Barclaycard was slightly different in that following the telephone conversation they required me to fill out a form and send in any evidence of the purchase etc, and once again after a couple of weeks had elapsed, all done - full credits received from both Barclaycard and MBNA.  Both companies have advised that the merchant has 45 days to dispute the chargeback, however in light of the circumstances that would seem unlikely, by which case I can pretty much consider the case closed.  Also worth a mention is that the transactions for both Barclaycard and MBNA were made via PayPal (but charged to my card), and no quibbles there either. 

 

As a footnote - I found PayPal to be a monumental waste of time.  After initiating contact via their 'help' section/email, I received nothing but generic responses (signed-off by their Bangladeshi customer service team judging by the staff names)  :wacko: , which incidentally addressed absolutely nothing to do with my original enquiry, and on further pursuit the responses simply drifted further and further away from the actual issue.  Customer service?  More akin to Chinese Whispers.  Ridiculous.  At that point I simply couldn't be bothered with phoning PayPal, as I figured already with some of the payments dating back to 2016 that I would have virtually no hope of recourse anyway.

 

I am only commenting from my own general experiences, but I always feel that more can usually be achieved by a simple phone call, for some reason writing in with issues seems to attract the multitude of generic responses simply advising, "Sorry, can't hep you mate", whereas a phone call allows for that all-important one-to-one 'human' discussion and can save a lot of time and frustrating back-and-forth communication via mail/email. 

 

Good luck!

 

 

Edited by YesTor
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I've had a reply from Lloyds Disputes (Halifax MasterCard) today regarding the 3 x £30s for the 92s.  As with others, they are saying the payments are out of the 540 days limit for a chargeback and have said they aren't eligible for a Section 75 refund, though haven't given a reason why.  I will write back with the point that I couldn't notify them within 540 days of original payment as the model was on-going (and will send copies of blog updates), plus will ask them why it's not eligible for a Section 75.  

 

So far for me then: APT chargeback fine and not disputed; Class 92s on-going due to elapsed time between payment and refund request.

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I made a claim against my credit card (Tesco Mastercard) in June and was refunded the money I had paid as a deposit for the APT 14 car set. I have just received a letter from my card company to say they are disputing my claim. The invoice / receipt does not state that the payment was a deposit and I now have to prove I did not receive any model even though I sent them a link to the site where it still states it is a 25% deposit.

 

They have given me 5 days to obtain a letter from the liquidator stating that nothing was supplied or the £248.99 charge will go back on my card. Hopefully I will receive a suitable response from the liquidator but I am not sure that is something they will even do.

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andymac it sounds like your situation would benefit from a phone call from you to your bank.

 

 

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Yes. It's completely unreasonable to expect you to turnaround a response from the liquidator within 5 days. Non-delivery could reasonably be assumed given the liquidation. I would imagine the DJM threads on this forum would give some evidence that the APT project never shipped.

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20 hours ago, BR(S) said:

I've had a reply from Lloyds Disputes (Halifax MasterCard) today regarding the 3 x £30s for the 92s.  As with others, they are saying the payments are out of the 540 days limit for a chargeback and have said they aren't eligible for a Section 75 refund, though haven't given a reason why. 

 

If you haven't done so already then be sure that your bank/credit card provider receive a copy of the liquidation notice (obtainable from CG&Co Recovery, email: [email protected]) to back up your claim. 

 

It is my understanding that under the Chargeback scheme the 540 day period that your bank have highlighted begins from the date of liquidation, ie. 12th June 2019, and not the date of the original deposit/transaction.  I too had placed deposits for several Class 92s, all dating back to October 2016, and I have received refunds for all via both MBNA and Barclaycard.

 

 

Edited by YesTor
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In an effort to be helpful, I give below the wording of my letter to my bank in case its content is helpful to others. I am doing this because, by luck or design, the letter worked first time without arguments with the bank. Four weeks after writing this letter I got a phone call to say the refund was being credited to my account.  I used a debit card, but the same letter should work for a credit card payment to DJM as it covers such things as dates and other points raised in this thread.

 



The Manager

Bank name & address

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account Number ********

 

Ref: Chargeback – DJmodels Ltd (in liquidation) Company No 08601496

 

I am writing to request that under the chargeback rules you reimburse me the £248.99 I paid with my debit card to DJmodels as a partial payment towards a scale model of the BR Class 370 (APT) Advance Passenger Train. This was to be the first of four instalments for this model. DJmodels have now gone into liquidation so I will never get the model and due to lack of assets I will not get a refund.

 

My claim is made on the grounds that the company has gone into liquidation and I will not be able to receive the item or my money back.

 

On 25th June 2019 the Companies office published the Statement of Affairs.  There is a total of £103k debts (excluding liquidation and other costs) against realisable assets of £4.8k.

 

The liquidator is Mr Jonathan E Avery-Gee and Mr Edward M Avery-Gee, C G & Co. Greg’s Building,

1 Booth Street, Manchester, M2 4DU

 

I attach:

Copy of DJmodels order

Letter received from Liquidators dated 13th June 2019

Statement of Affairs

My own bank statement highlighting this payment

 

This payment was made in response to advertisements by DJmodels that they would provide a model in return for four payments in instalments.

 

As recently as 9th February DJModels issued a newsletter confirming that tooling for the model would commence in “6-8 weeks” and that is not now going to happen.

 

I look forward to hearing from you

 

Yours Faithfully

 

Hope it works for you too. 

 

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I was pleasantly surprised the liquidator got back to me to let me know they had been in contact with 'the directors' and confirmed no products were ever supplied. I was not sure they would do this as it may not be in the interests of other creditors and there may have been some conflict of interest.

 

I have now sent this off for Tesco Bank to continue arguing my case along with links and copies of the original website pages clearly showing the £248.99 was a 25% deposit and along with a copy of newsletter 5 showing it had not got past preliminary CAD drawings by April 2019.

 

 

Hopefully this will be enough, I got the £248.99 credited back to my card fast enough when I made the initial Section 75 claim and did not expect to hear any more about it. I can only assume it was the relatively large amount of money that made them challenge my claim to try and get the charge reinstated. I guess I will just have to wait and see.

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On 09/08/2019 at 22:14, dogbox321 said:

Hi All, would appreciate a little advice/experience of others.

 

I have started the process rolling, on attempting to get a claim in with the LLoyds Credit Card that I paid for:

 

Hi C.

 

Have a look for my posts here, as I paid my deposit on a Lloyds Mastercard and was successful. I'd quote my relevant post #s if I could, but the new forum doesn't easily provide thread post numbers. I've got posts on page 1, 3, 5 and my success on a post on page 8.

 

Use my success with them as the precedent.

 

Also, tell them that you are a member of a forum where this is all being discussed, including names of the banking institutions, and advise them that other CC companies have provided full refunds, so ask polity why they should treat you differently.

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On ‎12‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:09, Crompton Power said:

Hi,

I did ask about chargeback, told that chargeback is only valid up to 6 months. Is this what others are being told? 

Amex are usually really good and have been on previous occasions for other issues. The guy explained that PayPal breaks the 3 person chain that section75 relies on, card company, seller and card holder. He also explained that payment via Stripe, which is also an intermediary payment facilitator is not covered by section75. You often don't know that the payment is via Stripe when a transactions is made. One to watch out for if you can with your online purchases.

Hi folks,

 

An update to my section 75 claim with Amex.

I received a reply stating that Amex are unable to uphold my claim.

They note that the value was £130 and a £30 deposit paid but consider they are not liable as the claim falls outside the scope of section 75.

Also payment was via PayPal, so Amex not liable under section 75 if there is not a direct relationship between the creditor (Amex) and the supplier.

But the letter then goes on to say that Amex will credit my account with £30 on non-liability basis as a goodwill gesture!

So a result is a round about way.

 

Keith.

 

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Firstly I would like to say a very big thank you to everyone in this thread for their advice and great assistance with this.

 

Secondly, a little update from Nationwide . . .

 

. . . I have received this morning a letter in the post confirming that I have been refunded the 2 deposits (This is 1x APT and 1x Class 92) which were purchased through my debit card  / Raised through the Visa chargeback process. Not wishing to go into the contents of the letter itself it was noted that where non delivery arises from administration / liquidation such a claim could be raised within 120 days from the expected date (aka delivery) BUT had to be within 540 days of the transaction itself (I presume first deposit in this case).

 

So my contribution to this thread for others hitting a wall with Nationwide is to go down the formal complaint route if you are getting nowhere with the visa chargeback and be persistent and hopefully you will get the result you want.

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Consumer Credit Act 1974....

 

75.3.b says:

 

"(b)so far as the claim relates to any single item to which the supplier has attached a cash price not exceeding [F2£100] or more than [F3£30,000] [F4, or]"

 

It does not say £100 must have been paid, but a price has been attached. Also the act says you can claim costs back for any action you take against the debtor.

 

Personally i'd threaten the credit card company with small claims court. A bank isn't going to attend small claims court for anything less than £500.

 

I hope this helps someone,

 

 

Edited by faa77

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If you are referring to Crompton's post, it appears that Amex refused the S75 claim not because of the purchase value but because it was made via Paypal.

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2 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

If you are referring to Crompton's post, it appears that Amex refused the S75 claim not because of the purchase value but because it was made via Paypal.

 

No I was just posting it generally

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7 hours ago, faa77 said:

Consumer Credit Act 1974....

 

75.3.b says:

 

"(b)so far as the claim relates to any single item to which the supplier has attached a cash price not exceeding [F2£100] or more than [F3£30,000] [F4, or]"

 

 

 

 

 

This is referring to claims that subsection (1) does NOT apply to.

Edited by Colin_McLeod

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12 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

This is referring to claims that subsection (1) does NOT apply to.

 

Yes, it is a double negative. Reworded:

 

It only applies to claims exceeding £100 or below £30,000

Edited by faa77
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