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AndrewP

loosing power on Hornby/Triang Hymek

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Hi, i have a Hornby/Triang Hymek which runs great for the first few minutes then gets slower and slower until stopping, leave it to rest a couple of minutes and it comes back to life for a bit then slowing and stopping.  Is overheating a problem? is there anything I can do???

thanks

andy

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What controller are you using?  If it's the basic Hornby R8250, then that is likely to be the cause due to its rather low power handling capacity.

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Hi smokebox, I'm using a Hornby R965 - would that be the same? (sorry to be a bit thick - don't know much about electrics and brought new to all this by my 4 year old son - but what does 'low power handling capacity mean? 

thanks

Andy

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I have just done a qoogle search the transformer should be capable of running the model that you mention. Do you have  amodel number for the loco, as if it is a early model with the motor image below has a high current draw on them.

 

If the motor is of the ring field design it sounds like the motor could dom with a good clean a possable a new set of brushes. But is difficult to make a assessment of the problem.

 

I hope that is of help to you.

 

Terry.

 

s-l1600.jpg.f6aeb181bee87dc418227bad0cf741ee.jpg 

 

 

 

 

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Hi, yes, that is the power bogie on the Hymek.  Will the high current draw affect be the cause?

Lot more complicated thank i thought - i just thought it was putting a train on a track and watching it go!! 

Andy

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Its rather an elderly model...

 

Lack of power is usually due to a poor magnetic field, the magnet losing its strength over time, or from the motor being dismantled and the magnet not being maintained on a "keeper".  If you were to use a controller with a higher output, the end result might be that it would go on a little more, but would then start to burn out the motor windings, which would Not Be A Good Thing.

 

But try giving the commutator a good cleaning with a cottonwool bud moistened in alcohol (if you don't have stuff like isopropyl alcohol about, plain vodka makes an excellent substitute), and clean the gaps in the commutator out with a cocktail stick.  Carbon from the brushes can bridge the commutator segments, reducing the power of the motor.

 

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I am inclined to agree with the above: if the brushes are good, it is most likely a weakened magnet.

There are much better but inexpensive neodymium magnets ("neomagnets") available from various sources, which drop straight in as replacements and don't lose their magnetism over time. It could be worthwhile pursuing one of those.

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Posted (edited)

Could be the Power bogie but sounds like the controller has a polyswitch which is not up to the current draw of this motor.  Polyswitches cause the power to drop slowly when their rated current is exceeded.  Very irritating. I had the same happen to an X04 powered 94XX on an Ontrack controller.  Slower and slower until it stopped and then it went fine again for a bit when the controller cooled down only to slow again and repeat the cycle. The Hymek was designed for controllers with a 1 amp bi metal strip cut out which had to be reset if it "Popped"  which give better overload protection than many of the more recent offerings.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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Posted (edited)

@AndrewP where abouts in the world are you - I can remagnetize your drive unit if needed for a reasonable fee, cost of postage is possibly the issue ....

 

www.redgatemodels.co.uk

Edited by RedgateModels
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Looking at the photo, there seem to be metal filings on the thrust bearing at the end closest to the camera...

These motors were pretty well indestructible; my friend, the Reverend, used to have a 'Mec with a pair of them on his garden line. No idea of the current drawer, but the old 'Duette' controller had to be cajoled to give them enough juice, and loose rail-joiners would smoke alarmingly.

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Posted (edited)

Mine with two motor bogies is wired to a single TCS T1 decoder, which has so far survived perfectly well, so the combined current draw can't be too bad. Next time I have this loco out, I'll stick it on the test track and turn on the ammeter on my NCE Power Cab to see what the actual draw is.

Edited by SRman
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2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Looking at the photo, there seem to be metal filings on the thrust bearing at the end closest to the camera...

These motors were pretty well indestructible; my friend, the Reverend, used to have a 'Mec with a pair of them on his garden line. No idea of the current drawer, but the old 'Duette' controller had to be cajoled to give them enough juice, and loose rail-joiners would smoke alarmingly.

Looking at the end closest the camera, is the fuzzy bit not an oiling pad?

 

Totally agree these are tough motors, with very similar designs in other Triang locos of the time such  as the EM2 and 31, also the Blue Pullman. If you need new brushes take a look on Ebay, possibly Peters Spares offer them as part of their expanding range of bits for older stuff.

 

John.

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Posted (edited)

I just ran some tests with mine: under light load it drew around 0.6 amps, but under full power with a stall load (my hand pushing down on it!), it drew a peak of 1.56 amps, with more average readings of 1.33 amps. In short, it is a fairly power hungry beast (remembering it has two of these motor bogies in it)! It will come close to the Heljan Hymeks as far as pulling power, and is almost as smooth, with eight-wheel pickup and drive, but is quite a bit noisier.

38107012425_942022e873_b.jpg
Hymeks in Triplicate - 2 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

The Triang one is on the left, in a fictional maroon livery, with two Heljan versions, in BR green and BR blue liveries.

Edited by SRman
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Just to say I think the photo posted was as an example by trainshed Terry, not the actual one Andrew is talking about 

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thanks for the helpful replies, i think I'll try to borrow a different controller and see how that works...

*** update, just got a triang jinty off ebay and that does exactly the same as the Hymek so, think it must be the triang locos and the power controller not getting on well with each other?

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The Hornby R965 has trouble powering the similar motored Triang/Hornby class 37, so yes you need a more beefy controller for these locos. The transformer states 16VA which in theory should be enough but I think the internal current limit of the controller is less than the sort of power these locos need.

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Make sure to oil the felt pads on those older motors.

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Even with a replacement controller, which seems to be the solution, seeing as how the other locos are also tripping the problem, if you have the money and the inclination, replacing the magnets on all of the old locos with neomagnets should also reduce their power consumption. I have done this on certain other older models, but not the Hymek ... yet. With the double motors on mine, it will definitely be a worthwhile modification.

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8 hours ago, SRman said:

Even with a replacement controller, which seems to be the solution, seeing as how the other locos are also tripping the problem, if you have the money and the inclination, replacing the magnets on all of the old locos with neomagnets should also reduce their power consumption. I have done this on certain other older models, but not the Hymek ... yet. With the double motors on mine, it will definitely be a worthwhile modification.

 

or get them remagnetized :)

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Posted (edited)
On 19/06/2019 at 09:56, RedgateModels said:

The Hornby R965 has trouble powering the similar motored Triang/Hornby class 37, so yes you need a more beefy controller for these locos. The transformer states 16VA which in theory should be enough but I think the internal current limit of the controller is less than the sort of power these locos need.

 

I have these, and tend to find it is the transformer that is the limiting factor. If you power it off a more beefy supply it can handle a lot more. Not only that, but the components inside the controller are without heat sinks, so if you were to open them up and add heat sinks they would power just about anything.

Edited by Titan

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2 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

I have these, and tend to find it is the transformer that is the limiting factor. If you power it off a more beefy supply it can handle a lot more. Not only that, but the components inside the controller are without heat sinks, so if you were to open them up and add heat sinks they would power just about anything.

 

Good to know :)

 

I bet the thyristor (or whatever device is used to control the voltage) is tripping out due to over temperature, a good heatsink would indeed help matters.

 

I my experience a good old H&M Clipper or Duette is what's needed for older Triang/Hornbys ;)

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On 19/06/2019 at 09:41, AndrewP said:

thanks for the helpful replies, i think I'll try to borrow a different controller and see how that works...

*** update, just got a triang jinty off ebay and that does exactly the same as the Hymek so, think it must be the triang locos and the power controller not getting on well with each other?

Definitely sounds like polyswitch issues, and not something the inexperienced can fix safely.  The Polyswitch progressively cuts the power as it gets hot.  Very cheap very nasty but pretty common nowadays.  An older Transformer / controller should cure the problem, avoid Triang Hornby "Westminster" and the like as they change from 1/2 to full wave as you increase the speed  but a Duette or Clipper should be fine.  However they are ageing so I recommend having the bottom off and checking for failed insulation (which can be life threatening)  on these metal cased units.

Maybe try a DCC controller feeding a decoder feeding the track if a future change to DCC is possible.  

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