Tie bar or stretcher bar?

[Gordon A]

I usually try to resist going into pedant mode, however having spent three days working on realigning a full sized A7 turnout and replacing a 13 foot hardwood sleeper by hand, I took these pictures to illustrate the correct terminology rather than that which is often used by railway modellers. 

 

Here we have a picture of the toe of the offending A7 turnout. In the picture there are two stretcher bars and one tie bar. Can you tell the difference?

The stretcher bars (In this case of flat construction) link the two turnout blades together so that they can operated as a pair. On the nearest stretcher bar on the right hand end you can see the connection hole to connect the blades to the operating mechanism.

The left hand connection can just be seen peeping out from under the left hand stock rail immediately in front of the jack.

 

The round bar nearest with a central adjustment is a tie bar. The tie bar's job is to prevent the track from spreading wider than gauge say due to rotting sleepers and has nothing to do with the operation of a turn out.

 

In this case we are using the tie bar to keep the two stock rails set at the correct gauge while drilling holes into the replacement sleeper to secure the slide chairs.

Once the holes have been drilled and the slide chairs secured the tie bar will be removed.

The above picture shows two tie bars being used to hold the main and diverging tracks to gauge. 

I am not looking for ward to sliding the rotten timber out and sliding in the replacement timber.

 

So please ladies and gents turnouts / points use stretcher bars to move the blades across.

 

Gordon A

 

 

[Talltim]

What’s the reasoning behind the name stretcher bar (well, obviously I get the bar bit!)

Edit, do the blades naturally want to spring in so the stretcher stretches them apart to the right distance?

Edited June 19, 2019 by Talltim

[Gordon A]

Sorry Taltim I don't know the reason behind the name.

I just think of them as carrying the drive to the blades.

Not much help there.

 

Gordon A

[Siberian Snooper]

To be really pedantic, it's a timber or crossing timber, sleepers are in plain track. 

 

For a long time several of the lower number platforms at Paddington had alternate tiebars and Acro props acting as spreaders to keep the gauge.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Siberian Snooper

[Fat Controller]

14 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

To be really pedantic, it's a timber or crossing timber, sleepers are in plain track. 

 

For a long time several of the lower number platforms at Paddington had alternate tiebars and Acro props acting as spreaders to keep the gauge.

 

 

 

IIRC, they haven't been completely successful at it....

[martin_wynne]

14 hours ago, Talltim said:

What’s the reasoning behind the name stretcher bar (well, obviously I get the bar bit!)

Edit, do the blades naturally want to spring in so the stretcher stretches them apart to the right distance?

 

To reduce the force needed to move them across, the switch blades are sprung against each other.

 

In their disconnected state they both lie flush against the stock rails. The stretcher bar pulls them together so that they lie naturally in the mid-way position, as in Gordon's photo. In order to do that the stretcher bar is in tension, i.e. in stretch.

 

When connected to the rodding, moving them to one side or the other relaxes the flexing in one blade, while increasing the flexing in the other. So the forces needed are cancelled out, and they can be moved across easily. This is what is meant by springing the blades against each other.

 

To limit the force needed from model point motors, you should try to achieve the same effect in a model. Make the switch blades both lie naturally against the stock rail.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Talltim]

Which is wierd, because a tiebar is also in in stretch!

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Under the circumstances of the thread I'm a bit surprised there's been no mention of the tie plate. If I may be so bold to add, the tie plate is the flat metal plate beneath the first pair of slide chairs. It's purpose is to hold the road to gauge (like the temporary tie bar). 

 

I dont know the the etymology of the term "stretcher", but I notice that the bars holding the legs of a chair or table together are also known as stretchers. 

[martin_wynne]

37 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

Under the circumstances of the thread I'm a bit surprised there's been no mention of the tie plate. If I may be so bold to add, the tie plate is the flat metal plate beneath the first pair of slide chairs. It's purpose is to hold the road to gauge (like the temporary tie bar).

 

That is normally called the sole plate.

 

Sometimes the ends of the plate are turned up as a forging, sometimes metal strips are welded or riveted across each end. The outer edges of the first slide chairs bear against the ends to hold them to gauge, as you say.

 

In Gordons's picture you can see metal strips welded across each end of the sole plate.

 

The sole plate is quite distinctive and obvious, but seldom modelled, probably because it means that the timber is a fraction lower than the rest of the timbers as a result. Which makes no difference in ballasted real track, but is a nuisance for laying model track on a flat surface.

 

Martin.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Tie plate is an Americanism for the plate which goes under flat bottom rail. It only carries one rail, whereas in UK terminology the soleplate goes under both rails and holds them a fixed distance apart. 

Just to confuse matters in the USA a tie plate was sometimes referred to as a soleplate.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

Where I'm from we've always called it a tie plate, but you've got me wondering now whether that's just a local colloquialism. When I'm back at the coal face I'll have to check some official documentation 

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

Where I'm from we've always called it a tie plate, but you've got me wondering now whether that's just a local colloquialism. When I'm back at the coal face I'll have to check some official documentation 

 

You are not wrong.

 

On the old NER pre-group drawings they are called tie plates (2 words).

 

On the REA (SRE) drawings they are called soleplates (1 word).

 

I will post some scans of the drawings shortly.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[5BarVT]

And the illustrated sole plate isn’t insulated, so no track circuit there. 

Paul.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I checked out an old PWI handbook. That refers to Base Plates for FB rail and Sole Plates at the toe of the points.

[Pandora]

Lots of phrases on the 12 inch to the foot railway, some are local to regions;

Stock / switch Rail,

Lamp chop, Oversails, Drive rods, backdrives, detector rods Solebar, Chog blocks, black dogs

finally Our Rail and Their Rail, refers to third rail electrification,  the rail which does not carry traction current inb a single rail track circuit "belongs" to S & T,  the rail which carries the traction return current is for the PW dept

[Trog]

Just in case anyone wants to know the extended ends of the stretcher bars that lie under the stock rails are the kicking straps.

 

Was feeling left out.

[phil-b259]

On 21/06/2019 at 17:11, Pandora said:

 

finally Our Rail and Their Rail, refers to third rail electrification,  the rail which does not carry traction current inb a single rail track circuit "belongs" to S & T,  the rail which carries the traction return current is for the PW dept

 

Just to add that the reason this is important is because the bonding round rail joints on the 'S&T rail' only has to carry track circuit current - and that is pretty weedy, usually between 0.5 and 1 Amp.

 

By contrast the 'ETE* rail' (its not the P-way one as quite logically both rails are the responsibility of the p-way department regardless of what electrical current flows through them) requires big thick cabling to take the traction return current (typically in the Tens / hundreds of Amps).

 

If a track circuit failure is due to missing bonding then it is important to ensure the replacement is of the correct type!

 

'Black dogs' are not dark haired canines (though more than one MOM has apparently made that mistake in the past when sent to go and have a look at one by control) - but refer to the ETE connections onto the long aluminium plates in the 4ft and are used he extract the traction current back to the substation or to re-distribute it amongst all 4 lines.

 

*ETE (no idea what the acronym stands or) are the department responsible for most aspects of the electrical traction supply, though in 3rd rail areas there is a bit of overlap between them and the S&T as regards the return current track interface as its the S&T who look after the impedance bonds (plus associated rail connections). Note Impedance bonds are only there because of electric traction - but if they go wrong they will cause track circuit failures so  it has been judge they should be an S&T responsibility.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by phil-b259

[TheSignalEngineer]

ETE = Electric Traction Engineer or Equipment. I've seen it used for both.

[phil-b259]

There are a number of 'how to' videos on You Tube by NR https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNQfx8VstOVwGMhaIyeaXBw/videos

 

This one describes the installation of tubular stretcher bars - the only type which can be fitted these days where replacement is required (with the exception of HPSS type points). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoZRoSIUZWo

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by phil-b259

[Titanius Anglesmith]

On 20/06/2019 at 18:32, Titanius Anglesmith said:

Where I'm from we've always called it a tie plate, but you've got me wondering now whether that's just a local colloquialism. When I'm back at the coal face I'll have to check some official documentation 

 

Well I checked one of our Engineering Standards today...... it refers to both "tie plate" and "soleplate" interchangeably! 

[43110andyb]

I have only ever known it as a sole plate and current standards for HW & Clamp lock installation both seem to support this-

[RLWP]

I notice 'current standards' include two different spellings for soleplate/sole plate

 

I love standards, there are so many to choose from

 

Richard

[Trog]

23 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

'Black dogs' are not dark haired canines (though more than one MOM has apparently made that mistake in the past when sent to go and have a look at one by control) - but refer to the ETE connections onto the long aluminium plates in the 4ft and are used he extract the traction current back to the substation or to re-distribute it amongst all 4 lines.

 

We always called impedance bonds which is what I assume you are talking about spiders on the LMR.

[jim.snowdon]

On 28 June 2019 at 19:12, Trog said:

 

We always called impedance bonds which is what I assume you are talking about spiders on the LMR.

Or as they are known on the Liverpool DC network, impedance tanks, and they refer to trackside cable connection plates as spider plates, in common with AC terminology (which is not surprising). Just to complicate matters, the connection plate that is connected to the impedance bond(s) for traction cables is known on the Southern as an advance plate, for reasons I have never discovered.

 

Jim

[Gordon A]

When were sole plates first brought in to use?

 

Gordon