Imaginary Locomotives

[Gibbo675]

11 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That's the one I was thinking of, but am not alongside my reference sources at present and didn't want to exaggerate how far the boiler went following detachment. (It doesn't bear imagining what might have happened at Harrow in 1952 had one of the larger boilers failed catastrophically there due to unfortunate impact damage.)

 

You may completely exonerate the crews. A digest of the Franco Crosti 9F evolution.

E.S. Cox gets all excited about the economy achieved by application of F-C on Kriegslok DB class 52 design.

The very capable Ron Jarvis,  already deeply knowledgeable in 9F having had charge of the preparation  of the detail designs, is assigned to produce a design for production of an F-C preheater batch of 9Fs.

Finds it cannot be done as the original twin preheater proposal , or as the revised single preheater design, unless a completely new smaller boiler design is developed. (To be frank, that should have killed the project then and there. Prospective savings never likely to pay off, as it wouldn't be economically possible to convert all the 9Fs constructed while the F-C version was being tested and proven, until boiler replacements fell due.)

Completely new smaller boiler designed and constructed. Major loss of internal volume and superheater surface.

Controlled testing at Rugby and on the road reveals just over 8% economy gain. That wouldn't even cover the negotiated design licence fee payment based on a 20% gain against a regular 9F. (The work involved in the new boiler design, and the much increased maintenance due to severe internal corrosion will absorb what economy gain was achieved, over the locomotive's then planned working life.)

In traffic, what is quickly observed is the lack of reserve power output that a 9F provides. Crews getting kippered by smoke entering the cab hardly motivates the footplate crews...

Hi 34B&D,

 

I was once lent a book that described the incident, the only photograph that shewed the whole of the devastation was an aerial photograph such was the extent of it all.

 

Most interesting information upon the Franco-Crosti boilered 9F's there.

 

Gibbo.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

7 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

I was once lent a book that described the incident, (Harrow 1952) the only photograph that shewed the whole of the devastation was an aerial photograph such was the extent of it all...

When I managed to get a copy of the accident report - not easy just 15 years after the event - what truly impressed me was the account of the signalman at Harrow who quite literally 'did everything right' even after the shock of seeing the Jubilee smash through the footbridge over the lines which he knew to be occupied by travellers.

 

I hope I got the 9F F-C boiler 'digest' right, as that was all from memory. 

[Northmoor]

5 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

When I managed to get a copy of the accident report - not easy just 15 years after the event - what truly impressed me was the account of the signalman at Harrow who quite literally 'did everything right' even after the shock of seeing the Jubilee smash through the footbridge over the lines which he knew to be occupied by travellers.

 

I hope I got the 9F F-C boiler 'digest' right, as that was all from memory. 

In so many (railway) disasters/accidents, there are examples of incredible professionalism and presence of mind:

1. The driver of DP2 who knew he was about to have a BIG accident and having made a full brake application, opened the drivers door before bracing himself behind the engine room bulkhead, because he knew that way the door couldn't be jammed shut after the crash and he'd be able to escape....

2. The crew of the burning petrol train in Summit Tunnel who took the time to separate the undamaged wagons from the burning wagon and drew these clear, which hugely reduced the amount of fuel available for the fire.

3. The driver of the Virgin 47 whose engine governor failed, so the engine speed went stratospheric and he knew it would self-destruct.  Rather than just stopping anywhere, he deliberately stopped the loco under a major road overbridge so that any components "thrown" would be constrained by the bridge, while also allowing passengers to be evacuated via the access steps up to the hard shoulder where road coaches could be safely stopped.

(Hopefully I've remembered those stories right).

 

[The Johnster]

Can I add Georgie Tarr, a Canton driver I knew in the 70s, who was driving an up loaded train of 60mph vacuum 4 wheel oil tanks towards Ferryside in the small wee hours, having relieved it at Carmarthen Jc.  An axle failure on a tank derailed it, with the traincrew unaware of the situation in the dark until the derailed wagon encountered the platform ramp at Ferryside, which it mounted and proceeded to derail the rest of the train; the signalbox was switched out at the time.  George, with what must have seemed like the end of the world going on all around him but realising what the problem was from the broken vacuum pipe's brake application, had the presence of mind to order his secondman into the engine room as the 47 tipped over on to it's right hand side, and was injured in the resulting crash, breaking his leg.  Loco slid for about 50 yards on it's side and both lines were completely blocked by derailed tanks, carrying heavy fuel oil and nothing spectacularly combustive (to be fair, he'd enough on his plate already).

 

With the secondman trapped but safe in the engine room, and the guard safe (as it happened) but buried by tanks in the back cab, but with his cab windows smashed, he was able to extricate himself from the cab and make his painful way further along the up, where he knew he would encounter the down newspapers rattling around the bend from Kidwelly at about 70mph.  He got about 150 yards before it's headcode lights showed up, so he flagged it down with a red Bardic lamp just before passing out.  

 

It was some time before he was found lying unconscious and hypothermic in the cess, and he'd compounded his leg fracture quite a bit.  That he'd prevented a much worse accident is beyond doubt, and in my view this counts as nothing less than genuine and proper heroism, not to mention cool headedness of a remarkable order.  He was about 4 months in hospital after this, and keeping the leg was touch and go for a long time, but he came back to work afterwards as if nothing had happened!  AFAIK he was never officially recognised for this, and would have been highly embarrassed if he had...

Edited July 17, 2019 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

None of the available emoticons are appropriate to express one's response to the footplate heroism recounted in the last two posts.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Wow. Some true tales of heroism and tragedy right here. Very sobering.

[scots region]

Not to intrude upon the discussion but it did remind me of a story from, what would have been, my local railway, the Callender and Oban. Of a double headed working that became separated during heavy snowfall, the lead locomotive proceeded on as almost as a scout before stopping at the next station, they duly waited until the rest of the train showed up, recoupled and headed onwards. It's not particularly heroic, and I imagine there are probably many stories like it across the world, probably even more dramatic. But its atmosphere, the loneliness the crew must have felt in forging on and then hunkering down in some entombed highland outpost, hoping that they're comrades are not far away, has stuck with me.      

[62613]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

2. The crew of the burning petrol train in Summit Tunnel who took the time to separate the undamaged wagons from the burning wagon and drew these clear, which hugely reduced the amount of fuel available for the fire.

Which reminds me of Gimbert and Nightall at Soham in 1944.

[melmerby]

If we are on to the results of boilers exploding how about this I posted in another section:

[scots region]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

If we are on to the results of boilers exploding how about this I posted in another section:

 

I keep this handy for the next time my storage solutions are brought up

[rodent279]

6 hours ago, scots region said:

 

I keep this handy for the next time my storage solutions are brought up

Guess it saves space over a fiddle yard!

[Hroth]

On 14/07/2019 at 21:23, rockershovel said:

 

Not even close, if this Iberian horror is any guide..

 

 

So thats where Ford got the idea for the front end of the Edsel.....

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ford_Edsel_(39363180082).jpg

 

 

[rodent279]

Ok, shoot me down in flames-here's another Imaginery Locomotive.

 

Swindon, during WW2, instead of building 8F's, builds either Bulleid light Pacific's, or boilers for them, to take the load off Eastleigh.

 

FWH, when looking at the fabled GW Pacific, takes what would have become the County cylinders and frames, lengthens them into a Pacific, and adds a Swindon version of a Light Pacific boiler.

 

Sorry, I can't do the graphics, but I think it's an intriguing idea that might just work-if the cylinders would fit in the loading gauge, given the extra throw of the longer frames.

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Ok, shoot me down in flames-here's another Imaginery Locomotive.

 

Swindon, during WW2, instead of building 8F's, builds either Bulleid light Pacific's, or boilers for them, to take the load off Eastleigh.

 

FWH, when looking at the fabled GW Pacific, takes what would have become the County cylinders and frames, lengthens them into a Pacific, and adds a Swindon version of a Light Pacific boiler.

 

Sorry, I can't do the graphics, but I think it's an intriguing idea that might just work-if the cylinders would fit in the loading gauge, given the extra throw of the longer frames.

Hi Rodent,

 

I like your thinking, nearly as bonkers as mine own thoughts.

 

A GWR locomotive with not only a wide fire box but the taper on the underside of the boiler is novel to say the least.

 

I might draw a a picture some time.

 

Gibbo.

[rodent279]

51 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Rodent,

 

I like your thinking, nearly as bonkers as mine own thoughts.

 

A GWR locomotive with not only a wide fire box but the taper on the underside of the boiler is novel to say the least.

 

I might draw a a picture some time.

 

Gibbo. I

I have a feeling that it'll look a bit ungainly, to be honest. Imagine TGB, with Saint cylinders, set further forward, and a trailing axle. Still, it's an interesting exercise, if not a plausible "might have been."

[RedGemAlchemist]

8 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I have a feeling that it'll look a bit ungainly, to be honest. Imagine TGB, with Saint cylinders, set further forward, and a trailing axle. Still, it's an interesting exercise, if not a plausible "might have been."

Pretty much my entire philosophy when designing my own locos. What looks interesting and like it could be possible rather than what makes plausible sense. 

[The Johnster]

My imaginary locos have to be plausible, or I'd want to be redesigning them so that they were plausible, which means I miss out on half the fun for taking it too seriously!  I'm currently thinking about a lightweight heavy mineral 2-8-0T for South Wales work, basically a 42xx with no.2 boiler and 45xx cylinders, BR power class about 5F.  No real need for it as the red route availability covered all the South Wales network, and the 56xx was pretty good on routes with sharper curvature that the 8-coupled tanks didn't like, but a reduction of wheel diameter to 4'1", a Swindon standard, would have upped the T.E. and allowed the coupled wheelbase to be shortened; speed is not important in the Valleys.  An 0-8-0 pannier based on the 94xx was actually considered for this role, but I think would have ridden very badly.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

A conversation elsewhere has reminded me of a project that I never proceeded with. What if Stanier had realised that all this faffing around with 4-6-0s was no way to go on for a fast loco of greater than power class 5. So the 'Jubilee' emerges as a 3 cylinder light pacific, scaled much as OVSB's later design and acceptable for the Midland branch of the LMS, among other secondary main lines. It's 'building itself' very attractively as I sketch it out in my mind. No patent on this, so other design concepts welcome...

[RedGemAlchemist]

Well my KLR has its two-cylinder inside-motion experimental LP that I came up with. The idea being that they saw the Great Bear and thought "Yeah, we can do that." Imagine if the LNER did a Pacific but didn't know what they were doing. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by RedGemAlchemist

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

the Midland branch of the LMS, among other secondary main lines. 

 

???

[Niels]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

A conversation elsewhere has reminded me of a project that I never proceeded with. What if Stanier had realised that all this faffing around with 4-6-0s was no way to go on for a fast loco of greater than power class 5. So the 'Jubilee' emerges as a 3 cylinder light pacific, scaled much as OVSB's later design and acceptable for the Midland branch of the LMS, among other secondary main lines. It's 'building itself' very attractively as I sketch it out in my mind. No patent on this, so other design concepts welcome...

One could also put five or six feet drivers under  the three cylinder 4-6-0s.

Four or six tons saved that can go to a bigger boiler and max speed is not limited by revs anymore but horsepower.

[RedGemAlchemist]

2 hours ago, RedGemAlchemist said:

Well my KLR has its two-cylinder inside-motion experimental LP that I came up with. The idea being that they saw the Great Bear and thought "Yeah, we can do that." Imagine if the LNER did a Pacific but didn't know what they were doing. 

Found a photo of it. Bit of an old picture, but lets you know roughly what it looks like.

[Flying Pig]

18 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

A conversation elsewhere has reminded me of a project that I never proceeded with. What if Stanier had realised that all this faffing around with 4-6-0s was no way to go on for a fast loco of greater than power class 5. So the 'Jubilee' emerges as a 3 cylinder light pacific, scaled much as OVSB's later design and acceptable for the Midland branch of the LMS, among other secondary main lines. It's 'building itself' very attractively as I sketch it out in my mind. No patent on this, so other design concepts welcome...

 

Jubilee-as-Pacific has popped up more than once in this thread: it was a rebuild imagined by Powell using the Britannia boiler. Here's one actually being built in N scale.

 

[Gibbo675]

18 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

A conversation elsewhere has reminded me of a project that I never proceeded with. What if Stanier had realised that all this faffing around with 4-6-0s was no way to go on for a fast loco of greater than power class 5. So the 'Jubilee' emerges as a 3 cylinder light pacific, scaled much as OVSB's later design and acceptable for the Midland branch of the LMS, among other secondary main lines. It's 'building itself' very attractively as I sketch it out in my mind. No patent on this, so other design concepts welcome...

Hin 34B&D,

 

I have the vision of a Clan with a low running plate complete with splashers, a Horwich style cab and an LMS 9 ton tender.

 

Gibbo.

[thx712517]

My own imaginary locomotives tend more to the internal arrangement than anything external. For example, taking the SECR N class 2-6-0, itself essentially a GWR 43xx, and using it as the basis for freight locomotives on the Southern. Increase the boiler pressure to 225-250 for more power, reduce the coupled wheels to 5' or less for increased tractive effort. Possibly muck about with cylinder bore and stroke as well, upgrading the internal steam passages, things like that. So you've got your 5' drivers for freight, and throw 6' drivers on for a passenger service variant. You'd get two locomotives with majority shared parts and driving style. 

 

My most visible imaginary locomotive though would be to take the Southern S15 goods loco and replace the round-top boiler with a Lord Nelson style Belpaire and double chimney. For some reason the round-top looks anemic to me.