Imaginary Locomotives

[Gibbo675]

4 minutes ago, JimC said:

 

Haven't we got enough on our plate with imaginary locos without diverting into imaginary currency manipulations?

Hi Jim,

 

May I caveat my answer of, yes, with you started it and also that people thinking that currency is real being the actual problem in this world !

 

On the bright side I have ordered both a Dapol 9F and a 4MT kit to build Johnster's suggested 2-6-2 class 5 and my idea of a 2-8-4T with booster from the left over bits. I must finish my 2-6-0 0-6-2 Kitson-Meyer contraption first though.

 

Gibbo.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, JimC said:

 

Haven't we got enough on our plate with imaginary locos without diverting into imaginary currency manipulations?

All currency is imaginary.

[rodent279]

Now how about a Beyer-Garrett 9F? Brit boiler, 2-6-0+0-6-2, maybe oil fired? 4x16" cyls.

[Gibbo675]

10 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Now how about a Beyer-Garrett 9F? Brit boiler, 2-6-0+0-6-2, maybe oil fired? 4x16" cyls.

Hi Rodent,

 

Here is the Kitson-Meyer so far

 

I might pull my finger soon and finish it, I did think about a Garret version but decided the above was that bit more crazy and therefore more fun.

 

Gibbo.

[rodent279]

Nice one! I suppose you'd still be able to have the deeper ashpan and larger diameter boiler of the Brit with that configuration. Are you not tempted to use the larger tender with full height sides?

[brack]

35 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Now how about a Beyer-Garrett 9F? Brit boiler, 2-6-0+0-6-2, maybe oil fired? 4x16" cyls.

Needs shorter, fatter boiler than anything put on a conventional loco or you cripple the garratt and defeat half the point of the design.

[Gibbo675]

17 minutes ago, brack said:

Needs shorter, fatter boiler than anything put on a conventional loco or you cripple the garratt and defeat half the point of the design.

Hi Brack,

 

That is partly why I built the Kitson-Meyer so that I could use the 9F Boiler, a Garret would have to have ad a scratch built boiler.

 

Gibbo.

[Zomboid]

7 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Nice one! I suppose you'd still be able to have the deeper ashpan and larger diameter boiler of the Brit with that configuration. Are you not tempted to use the larger tender with full height sides?

Wouldn't a loco like that need to run happily in both directions? The stepped sides allow for better visibility when running "tender" first.

[DavidB-AU]

45 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Wouldn't a loco like that need to run happily in both directions? The stepped sides allow for better visibility when running "tender" first.

 

It would, which would suggest dual controls would be warranted as was installed in some Garratts. 

 

Cheers

David

[rodent279]

58 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Wouldn't a loco like that need to run happily in both directions? The stepped sides allow for better visibility when running "tender" first.

Good point, well made.

[rockershovel]

On the principle of “a prototype for just about anything”.. Proposed Kitson Meyer 2-8-8-0T with cylinders at outside ends, clearly not designed for bi-directional running..

 

https://www.mendotraintony.com/kitson-meyer-0-6-00-6-0/

 

one question about the BR Standard, high cylinders - how does the articulation work? 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by rockershovel

[Gibbo675]

49 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

On the principle of “a prototype for just about anything”.. Proposed Kitson Meyer 2-8-8-0T with cylinders at outside ends, clearly not designed for bi-directional running..

 

https://www.mendotraintony.com/kitson-meyer-0-6-00-6-0/

 

one question about the BR Standard, high cylinders - how does the articulation work? 

 

 

 

 

Hi Rockershovel,

 

In the Beyer-Garret type locomotives the pivots are hemispherical housings that contain a large bronze ball with a hole through the middle for the high pressure steam to pass through for the feed to the steam chests, the ball has an anti rotation key to keep it in the vertical plane. Either side of the ball joints there are segmental bearers that prevent roll of the boiler frame about the engine units, I would think that the Kitson-Meyer types uses a similar system.

For the exhaust steam the passages to the base of the blast pipe there will be via a set of rotating banjo fittings and a telescoping tube sealed by rope packings held in gland housings to allow rotation of the engine unit under the boiler frame.

The weight of the boiler and its frame seals the high pressure steam joint and as exhaust steam rarely exceeds 15PSI rope packings are plenty adequate for the sealing of the exhaust steam system.

 

High cylinders are an irrelevance to the supply and exhaust of the steam as the pipes attached to the engine units are fixed up to the pivot points and may be placed where ever within reason.

 

Gibbo.

 

Gibbo.

[Clive Mortimore]

I am really liking all this technical stuff, but I think in doing so I am missing the point of this thread ....Imaginary Locomotives? 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Rockershovel,

 

In the Beyer-Garret type locomotives the pivots are hemispherical housings that contain a large bronze ball with a hole through the middle for the high pressure steam to pass through for the feed to the steam chests, the ball has an anti rotation key to keep it in the vertical plane. Either side of the ball joints there are segmental bearers that prevent roll of the boiler frame about the engine units, I would think that the Kitson-Meyer types uses a similar system.

For the exhaust steam the passages to the base of the blast pipe there will be via a set of rotating banjo fittings and a telescoping tube sealed by rope packings held in gland housings to allow rotation of the engine unit under the boiler frame.

The weight of the boiler and its frame seals the high pressure steam joint and as exhaust steam rarely exceeds 15PSI rope packings are plenty adequate for the sealing of the exhaust steam system.

 

High cylinders are an irrelevance to the supply and exhaust of the steam as the pipes attached to the engine units are fixed up to the pivot points and may be placed where ever within reason.

 

Gibbo.

 

Gibbo.

 

That want really my question. It looks to me that the cylinders foul the superstructure at almost any degree of articulation? 

[Clive Mortimore]

I was bored.

 

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I was bored.

 

 

Looks almost like something Bulleid would have thought of if he had wanted something of intermediate power between a Q1 and a West Country!   Of course, that might have ended up with an oil-bath chain motion and no external valve gear.....

 

[Gibbo675]

37 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I was bored.

 

Hi Clive,

 

I like that, it looks like a cross between LMS and LNER with shades of built on the cheap. Would it have the strange spokes that the Austerities had or proper spokes in the driving wheels, I presume discs for the bogie and tender.

 

Gibbo.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 minute ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Clive,

 

I like that, it looks like a cross between LMS and LNER with shades of built on the cheap. Would it have the strange spokes that the Austerities had or proper spokes in the driving wheels, I presume discs for the bogie and tender.

 

Gibbo.

Ah! the wheels , I will leave that to everyone else's imagination.

[Gibbo675]

36 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Looks almost like something Bulleid would have thought of if he had wanted something of intermediate power between a Q1 and a West Country!   Of course, that might have ended up with an oil-bath chain motion and no external valve gear.....

 

Hi Hroth,

 

As it is a two cylinder machine would Bulleid have not made it and inside cylinder contraption to reduce the rocking couple to enable fast running, also if it were inside cylinder it may well be Stephenson's link rather than Walschearts gear. Possibly no running plate either !

 

Gibbo.

[JimC]

Minituarised Stephenson's link in a oilbath between the frames... now there's a thought to conjure with. 

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

That want really my question. It looks to me that the cylinders foul the superstructure at almost any degree of articulation? 

Hi Mr Shovel,

 

Now that you have suitably reposed the question I am able to tell you that there is plenty of room as may be seen from the extra photographs below:

 

 

 

 

As you may note there is about 3mm which scales at 9" which I would judge plenty for even bad track, any worse then you would off the road which is another problem altogether. The pivot points are at the ends of the framing which terminate above the centre of the driving and leading driving wheels.

 

Gibbo. 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I was bored.

 

That's actually quite a handsome beast.

[RLBH]

The Austerity 4-6-0 is an interesting, and obvious, thought, suggestive of the occasional 'Railways of Nineteen Eighty-Four' discussion. And one that prompts thoughts of other Austerities - but what?

 

The obvious one is a 2-8-2 comparable to the USATC S200, on the presumption that the UK had to built locomotives for the work domestically rather than getting lend-lease. Intended for use in the Middle East, but built to the British loading gauge for practical reasons. As, in fact, were the S200s, although they never actually ran in the UK as far as I know.

 

General freight would suggest a need for a Class 4F 0-6-0 or maybe a mixed traffic 2-6-0, with possibly an 0-8-0 heavy shunting tank to make up trains for the big Austerity 2-8-2.

 

And that, I think, would be the lot. Certainly no need for such extravagances as express Pacifics on an Austerity railway. With the need for austerity being foremost, the little branch lines needing Class 2 locomotives to handle their light traffic will no doubt be closed 'for the duration' and served more efficiently by some combination of 15cwt and 30cwt lorries and motor buses.

[The Johnster]

Except that some of those little branch lines were needed for military traffic serving airfields and camps. I can't visualise the 4F 0-6-0 except as a Q1, which has the advantage of extra power anyway, or the 2-8-2 although it can easily be sketched out as a variant of the actual 2-10-0.

 

The 4-6-0 is an interesting fast mixed traffic concept though.  The bulk of MT work was being done by 4-6-0s before the war, and this would have presumably been cheaper and quicker to build than such Halls, B1s, and Black 5s as were built during the austerity period.  I'd suggest 5'8" driving wheels.  It would probably have been a spine cruncher to ride on at any sort of speed, though!

 

But most of these austerity locos were not really designed for home use; by the time they arrived on the scene the tide of war was against the Axis and they were only being used here until the invasion allowed them to be used in mainland Europe, and many went straight to the Middle or Far East without ever seeing UK service.  There was in the event no need to design a range of austerity locos to aid the war effort at home, and it was an unintended consequence that the WD 2-8-0s were repatriated here after hostilities ceased.  

 

Something very like it happened on the LMS post war happened, though, with the Ivatt moguls, which were designed and built while the austerity period was still very much in force.  These set the pattern for the Riddles BR standards from the 5MT down in size.  The Austerity 4-6-0 eventually appeared as the 75xxx 4MT.

 

One could have a go at it by cut'n'shutting a WD 2-8-0 bodyshell on to a 75xxx underpinning, with a fabricated running plate.  The cab floor height might be an issue.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Except that some of those little branch lines were needed for military traffic serving airfields and camps. I can't visualise the 4F 0-6-0 except as a Q1, which has the advantage of extra power anyway, or the 2-8-2 although it can easily be sketched out as a variant of the actual 2-10-0.

 

The 4-6-0 is an interesting fast mixed traffic concept though.  The bulk of MT work was being done by 4-6-0s before the war, and this would have presumably been cheaper and quicker to build than such Halls, B1s, and Black 5s as were built during the austerity period.  I'd suggest 5'8" driving wheels.  It would probably have been a spine cruncher to ride on at any sort of speed, though!

 

But most of these austerity locos were not really designed for home use; by the time they arrived on the scene the tide of war was against the Axis and they were only being used here until the invasion allowed them to be used in mainland Europe, and many went straight to the Middle or Far East without ever seeing UK service.  There was in the event no need to design a range of austerity locos to aid the war effort at home, and it was an unintended consequence that the WD 2-8-0s were repatriated here after hostilities ceased.  

 

Something very like it happened on the LMS post war happened, though, with the Ivatt moguls, which were designed and built while the austerity period was still very much in force.  These set the pattern for the Riddles BR standards from the 5MT down in size.  The Austerity 4-6-0 eventually appeared as the 75xxx 4MT.

 

One could have a go at it by cut'n'shutting a WD 2-8-0 bodyshell on to a 75xxx underpinning, with a fabricated running plate.  The cab floor height might be an issue.

4 MT?

 

It is a class 5 MT. I know cos I designed it.