American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Rocker

 

The PM system seems to be very flaky, so herewith contact details for Bruce, who s acting as agent for the sale of the Lionel.

 

Its from a public domain source, so I’m not breaching any protocol.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

I’ve decided not to follow this up, although thanks for the mention. 

 

I’ll explain why in the next post..

 

[rockershovel]

Themes...

 

I notice that the 4-4-2 sneaked into the thread without a mention. So, a good place to start. 

 

Lionel went through a series of reincarnations in the late 60s, 70s and early 80s, which are referred to as the “MPC Period”. It seems to be analogous to the AMF period at Harley Davidson (around the same time). The MPC era products were basically reissues of earlier models, in new liveries and in some cases, with rather crude electronic sound features. They aren’t sought after by collectors, are quite common and priced accordingly. 

 

Lionel have continued some features of the MPC era in their “train set” range. I suppose they are the Lionel equivalent of the various Tri-Ang 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 types which still form a significant part of the Hornby range?

 

Anyhoo.... I’ve acquired a modern (early 2000s) 4-4-2 for no great outlay. It’s basically an update (of sorts) of the older 2-4-2 and 2-6-2 types, fitted with a smoke unit and headlight, simple side motion (basically connecting and coupling rods in place of the single connecting rod on the 2-4-2) and a mechanical whistle tender. Very much a “toy train” but with its can motor and electronic reverser, provides smooth operation and its die-cast body and single traction tyre offers surprising grip. It was (and still is) a big seller for Lionel, and I can see why. 

 

I’ve also acquired an MPC-era “small Hudson”. This is basically a re-issue of the older ones with a new paint job, electronic reverser (with the lever protruding from the firebox in time-honoured fashion) and open-frame motor. It also has the early “Sound of Steam” feature and an early electronic whistle, not known for its reliability and rather quaintly referred to as the “barking seal” or “dying cow” due to its asthmatic tone. The circuit board appears to be life-expired, so these aren’t functional, which doesn’t grieve me very much. 

 

So... I have decided to concentrate on the traditional size, MPC era Lionel range, on O27 track, for the “door layout”. It gives me the option of the “small Hudson” (with, or without the whistle tender from the 4-4-2), the Berkshire 2-8-4, the various “traditional size” and O27 rolling stock. I’m going to look for a switcher, the small 0-4-0 steam type, another Lionel classic and still in the range, because a minor revision to the track plan suggests how I could accommodate it (I want this layout to have two trains in view, although I can’t accommodate two running without converting to electric switches and auto stop). 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Themes (2)....

 

this all means that the Williams Pacific and the K Line “semi scale” Hudson can be dedicated to club running days, public appearances and occasional display duty. I can pursue various upgrades to the Hudson’s rather problematic sound system, and fitting larger front pilot (bogie) wheels which make s surprising improvement to its appearance. 

 

The large, extruded aluminium coaches go in the same category.

 

the Scout 2-4-2 and various related clutter have been boxed and put away, pending further attention when time allows..

 

[rockershovel]

On 05/11/2019 at 13:58, rockershovel said:

The modern 0-8-0, light-footed little beast that it is, could scarcely move these! The little Scout 2-4-2 needs a light touch on the lever but will move them steadily, once it's got them going. They re HEAVY, and have pick-up rollers on all bogies and coil couplers. They have been in someone's cabinet for many years, I think. I've applied WD40 and contact cleaner so time will tell. They need running. 

 

The couplers all work and the lighting.. it's interesting to note on the video that one of the bulbs isn't lit, this isn't evident from watching them circulate. 

 

The Hudson simply walked away with them, and walks around steadily at a slow pace. It looks rather good, too..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6esqcqxscqw3o8/IMG_2619.MOV?dl=0

 

 

A bit more experience with these cars on the O27 track, and I find that one if them has a partial short circuit caused by worn insulation on one of the 3rd rail rollers, which is deteriorating further with use. It’s not a big job, but not urgent in the scheme of things. I’ve boxed them up for now to await attention.

[rockershovel]

The “small Hudson” seems to have the same tender baseplate as the Berkshire 2-8-4. I suspect that with some selective assembly from the two tenders, I could assemble a tender for this loco incorporating an air whistle. The existing sound system seems to be quite crozzled. 

 

I’ve put this question aside for now. This loco has an old-style open frame AC motor and seems to have LOTS of power, and growls round with a satisfying smell of ozone and much wheel noise on tinplate track. I’d like to give it a good run out at NAROGG (probably in Feb, at this rate) so there’s no urgency to deal with the tender. 

[rockershovel]

So, I’ve spent some time fettling the track generally, improving connections, fitting the cut-to-fit sections better and generally “making good”. Trains now run much better, and a lot of the general sparking and banging from underneath, seems to have been eliminated. I’ve also made some minor amendments to the track plan;

 

 

this seems to be pretty much “maximum O27” in the available space, 6’6” x 3’, which is pretty astonishing for O gauge when you think about it! 

 

The buffer stops came from eBay, and seemed to round it off nicely. The red lights are powered by track current... I’ve worked out a sequence involving a coal tipper train and a hopper, which seems to be about the right size for the layout. Train lengths are 3 cars. It’s basically a shunting puzzle, with continuous operation and a loop. The coal loader will go on the nearer siding. 

 

I did rather want a diamond crossing, they always seem a rather “American” feature to me and it’s quite useful in the space. The present current distribution is a bit subtle, the points need to be set in the right combination for it all to work. Additional power feeds are required, I think.

 

I could fiddle about for ever with minor changes, but I think the Law of Diminishing Returns is now well established. Time to crack in and fix the track down. 

[Nearholmer]

This could be transported in an estate car, yes?

 

And, you don’t live too far from Harringworth?

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

This could be transported in an estate car, yes?

 

And, you don’t live too far from Harringworth?

 

I think that’s “sort of, but not really”. I did bring the door home in the car but it’s about 6” too long to be conveniently transported that way. There’s also the so far, unaddressed issues of electrical connections. I was intending to mount the various terminals and buttons for the track power, uncouplers etc on the outside edge of the frame, because they have to go SOMEWHERE, so they would be fragile projections. There is also the question of edge protection, if only to prevent derailed locos diving to the floor..

 

I had thought it would be a test piece which could be propped up against the wall, put on trestles or carried into the back garden, rather than a truly transportable layout. It would be fine in a van, but I don’t possess a van. 

 

I had thought of a subsequent portable version. The general plan would be a folding baseboard, 10’ or 11’ x 3’ or 3’3” (1m) to fit into the car, with proper carrying handles and separate electrical panel. The track plan would be much as before, extended to the NE (ie, up and right, in the photo). Operationally it would be much the same.

 

 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

This could be transported in an estate car, yes?

 

And, you don’t live too far from Harringworth?

 

Harringworth is very much on my to-do list, but so are a number of other things. I certainly won’t be able to attend in Jan, on present basis. 

[Nearholmer]

I was thinking further into the future - I will flag the possibility to R and P.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I was thinking further into the future - I will flag the possibility to R and P.

 

I’m mainly interested at present, in giving the larger stock a good run out. I’ve now got 5 of the long, extruded aluminium carriages including a Vista Dome car, and 4 heavyweight “short Madisons” which would look the part with the MPC Hudson. 

 

I’ve also got a quantity of Lionel O31 track which I could bring along, together with a KW type transformer, if they were of any use? 

Edited December 9, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

One thing which has taken a bit of working out, is how the various radii (diameters) relate. I’ve just seen this trackplan for O36 Fast Track (the smallest “modern” size); so here are the three together as a comparison

 

1) O27, the smallest size, in 6’6” x 3’

 

 

2) O31, the smallest “traditional”, full-sized and fully-featured tinplate track size, in the same dimensions. The restricted options are evident; even without the half-length straights in mid-curve, I couldn’t accommodate the passing loop in the space, and the possible sidings were significantly shorter

 

 

3) a modern track plan for O36, the smallest modern size; basically, the O27 layout in 8’ x 4’

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Christmas, and I thought I’d have a train around the tree. Specifically, the Berkshire 2-8-4 plus one of the lighted O27 coaches and the yellow caboose, with its flashing lights. Grand-daughter is greatly intrigued with “papa’s train” ..

[rockershovel]

I’ve tried various combinations, while I’ve had the time

 

1) a transformer/controller originally used with No 1 Son’s Hornby train set, will operate the “can motor” locos quite well, reversing them by cycling the reverser by interrupting the power. Note that this is without any form of whistle tender, which simply paralyses the loco and trips out the controller

 

2) it won’t move any of the Lionel AC, open frame motor locos, just trips out

 

3) the Williams USRA Pacific requires a light hand on the dial, as getting the reverser to engage needs care. Useful to know for its forthcoming debut at NAROGG

 

4) the 1980s “small Hudson” has much the weakest smoke unit, I’ve seen better in Tri-Ang!! 

 

5) the 0-4-0 switcher smokes like a champ! 

 

[rockershovel]

A long-established US dealer is closing soon and all sorts of NOS is appearing as a result. Since I seem to be effectively committed to O27 track, I’ve bought a circle of 42” radius O27 plus three 42” switches in the same size. I don’t have any immediate use for this but it’s the first such track I’ve seen offered for sale. 

 

[brianusa]

WADR,  If you're talking about a a Hornby O gauge transformer, it won't be much use on Lionel trains as its only rated about 1 amp AC which was OK for the old tinplate Hornby.  For your lighted passenger train, it will need a more powerful unit.  I run a GN passenger set with two engines, two dummies and six lighted passenger cars with a MTH Z4K which is more than adequate.  Incidentally, your 027 layout is very similar to my first layout and great fun it was too!

Happy New Year.

                                 Brian.

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, brianusa said:

WADR,  If you're talking about a a Hornby O gauge transformer, it won't be much use on Lionel trains as its only rated about 1 amp AC which was OK for the old tinplate Hornby.  For your lighted passenger train, it will need a more powerful unit.  I run a GN passenger set with two engines, two dummies and six lighted passenger cars with a MTH Z4K which is more than adequate.  Incidentally, your 027 layout is very similar to my first layout and great fun it was too!

Happy New Year.

                                 Brian.

 

It’s the old twin-dual unit, rated for a total of 2.5A. It’s no real use for the locos but it does have a 16v AC takeoff which might be useful for switches or accessories, or running a test track. 

 

I was going to screw the track down on the O27 layout, but I’ve now got two of the motorised switches operating, so I’m going to experiment with the non-derailing feature before doing that. This is proving to be something of a limitation for the “layout on a door” format - nowhere to put the wiring! 

 

I think 6’6” x 3’ is just about the minimum useful size for a layout of this sort. I’ve got a much better “eye” for the track geometry now and I’m looking forward to receiving the 42” curves. I want to experiment with 8’x4’ and 9’x5’ (=table tennis table) sizes, next. 

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by rockershovel

[BR60103]

Rocker

Check how the non-derailing feature works. I never had them, but I think I read that some switches needed an insulated joint (fiber pin) in the rail beyond the frog, otherwise the non-derail feature would be alive permanently. I think another set of switches had the insulated gap built in. 

(This is based on stuff read 60+ years ago).

If you power the switch from the point end, test by bridging a wire between the two running rails beyond the frog. 

 

My manual switches had a different approach, The middle rail was only powered in the right direction.

 

[rockershovel]

They work like this http://3railfun.blogspot.com/2016/02/how-non-derailing-turnouts-work.html

 

the fibre pins are in place on both switches. I’ve never used switches like this, but the plan is to fit them so that the two switches controlling the passing loop, operate together. I’ve come to realise that the layout would benefit from having interlinked pathways through the passing loop, and the reverse loop / diamond crossing

 

[rockershovel]

Had the 2400 coaches on the workbench this afternoon. Traced a short circuit in one of them, due to perished insulation. I must solder in a new wire, because one of the coaches now blinks off as it crosses a switch (because one of the pickup rollers isn’t working) but they light up steadily and it has also cured the uncoupling-at-random problem as well! 

 

 

they look rather fine with the new “small Hudson”..

 

[Nearholmer]

I like those coaches a lot, possibly because they look how an SR emu might have turned out if they’d employed a stylist, instead of only engineers, in the DO.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I like those coaches a lot, possibly because they look how an SR emu might have turned out if they’d employed a stylist, instead of only engineers, in the DO.

 

They ARE rather nice, aren’t they? Restrained and understated, which isn’t something commonly associated with American railroads. The Hudson has a Brunswick Green livery, which doesn’t quite match but gives a general association.

 

they also look good with a black loco..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/os4w5ai52030fxm/Video 05-11-2019%2C 13 18 02.mov?dl=0

[rockershovel]

Piece here about the various types of motor .. useful information about this sometimes, little understood subject 

 

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/142349.aspx

[rockershovel]

As a general comment on the 24xx coaches, they really are pleasingly well engineered little things. 

 

I’ve been replacing some of the wiring, which is suffering from perished insulation, and they are just nicely done, all round. The trucks have centre-rail rollers on every truck, the die-cast side frames and metal wheels provide return through all wheels. The two thumbscrews on the roof, styled as vents, provide easy removal and refitting, and the coil operated couplers work reliably (now I have sorted out the wiring). 

 

They track nicely, being quite heavy and having stable mountings for the trucks - no plastic rivets! The bodies are distinctive and robust. They are, somehow, just what a toy train ought to be. 

 

I’ve also come to appreciate the “Polar Express” 2-8-4. It’s a solid piece, nice crisp casting, tracks steadily, smooth slow running and doesn’t take the high power consumption of the older type motors. The (rather weedy) smoke unit has an isolator switch, which is a useful fitting. It will also stay on the track at full tramp, to the delight of No 1 Granddaughter! It’s rather underscale, like a lot of older type Lionel it’s nearer 1:55 than 1:48 scale but it’s pleasingly proportioned (unlike the 1980s 4-6-4, which measures around 20% under scale length, but only 5% or so underscale in its loading gauge). 

 

I must sort out the whistling tender for this loco...

 

[GRASinBothell]

Lionel also make a scale version of the Polar Express loco, but you would need curves of at least O-54 to run it. Oh, and it costs around $1000 more than the O-27 version!

Gordon