American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, GRASinBothell said:

Lionel also make a scale version of the Polar Express loco, but you would need curves of at least O-54 to run it. Oh, and it costs around $1000 more than the O-27 version!

Gordon

 

And very splendid it is too, as is the Vision Line Hudson at... oh, even more than that. But I’m not playing that game.  For that money, I’d be working in 2 rail fine scale, for one thing (to be fair, O54 is still only 27” radius...) 

 

Count the rails, as they say over there..

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by rockershovel

[GRASinBothell]

I wasn't suggesting you would or should. Merely pointing out that if you were a member of the heavy-wallet brigade, you could! Lionel caters to (and makes money off) all tastes...

Gordon

[rockershovel]

..which has led me to get my callipers and tape measure out. There’s much discussion of the relationship between “scale”, “semi-scale” and “O27”, so what does it actually mean?

 

To some extent, it’s about level of detail, and prototypical accuracy. Rather like the difference between Hornby Railroad, and their top-of-the-range. I’m not going to get into that. It’s also said, in some quarters, that it is about building models to approx 1:53 scale, which is a fair comment on older, “traditional size” Lionel from the Post War period. It’s also true that some larger prototypes are rendered in 1:58 or 1:63 scale, the RailKing Big Boy and 2-6-6-6 Allegheny being examples. O27 is sometimes described as “S scale bodies on O gauge trucks” and that’s less than accurate. 

 

Putting the tape on two locos to hand, a 1980s Lionel Hudson and a early 2000s Berkshire, I find that both are near-enough 1:64 overall in length, but slightly less than 1:50 in loading gauge (height and width) .. but note later comments on tender lengths. 

 

So, we might say that modern O27 is O scale, but compressed approximately 20% in length. This isn’t the complete story, however, as the locos are near-enough 1:60 for length, whereas the tenders are around 3” underlength, plus the BIG loco-tender gaps adding up to 4” or so. So there is selective compression, but it’s not as severe as the overall lengths suggest; and some roads used shorter tenders anyway, as seen here;

 

 

 

Looking at the model, the compression around the firebox and rear truck is evident, as is the compression of the 6-wheel truck tender;

 

 

 

The O27 tank cars are a particular anomaly. These are a good comparison to the SJCC On3 cars, which means they are scale size for an 8000 gall (US) tank car; a small size, but a prototype size, 

Edited January 11, 2020 by rockershovel
Checked my figures and amended the text slightly to suit

[rockershovel]

the K Line Hudson is now back from some maintenance and minor repairs. It’s definitely “early electronics” but all its functions are working now, and it has a “blanking plug” which allows it to run on 12v DC without the whistle blowing uncontrollably 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/435kpmhk372ihtm/Video 10-01-2020%2C 19 35 33.mov?dl=0

[rockershovel]

So, I’ve bought a late-1990s Williams “scale” 4-6-4. It was hanging around on eBay and various auction sites and I made a low offer; sometimes that works! I’ll pick it up while I’m in the US next couple of weeks, that should raise some eyebrows in the carry-on bag..

 

There seems to be a generation of locos from the 1990s, left by the wayside as electronics become more elaborate and cheaper..

 

It brought me back to the question of “scale vs semi-Scale” and I found this image, which illustrates the difference nicely

 

 

the rear loco is the “scale”, 1:48 version. Length overall is 24”, 96’ full size. The front loco is “semi-Scale”, near-enough 1:48 scale loading gauge but 19.5” overall length. The driving wheels are also undersized, and the rear bogie wheelbase is short. 

 

[Nearholmer]

Both have their appeal.

 

Assuming the back one is all metal, it appears to be the equivalent of what Ace provide for us in the UK, and very good for it.

[rockershovel]

....yes, and no. They are both die-cast with brass add-on details. There is a complex history of the tooling involved, most of which leads back to the Lionel "Scale Hudson" of the pre-War period. 

 

O Gauge 2-rail seems to be a very minor niche interest in the US, and most of these are 3 rail only. Modern production models have elaborate sound systems and DCC-equivalent control systems. 

 

The "semi-scale" models will cope with O27 track, 13.5" radius in most cases, with O31 (16.5" radius) in all cases. Someone remarked earlier that O27 had its own character and appeal, and these really sum it up - the K Line Hudson is pretty much the O27 equivalent of the Hornby Dublo Flying Scotsman, I suppose. The larger "scale" one requires at least O42 (21" radius) and is happier on O54, 27" so I think it will be best kept for "club days" and similar outings

Edited January 18, 2020 by rockershovel

[brianusa]

Lionel in particular made it so that most of their stock would traverse 031 curves.  Only latterly with their 0 scale stock were larger curves required and even then some locos were able to negotiate sharp curvature.  One of mine, a scale KLine 2-8-2 can also run on this small radius track so the ability to run on Lionel's smallest curves was a plus to other manufacturers. 

     Brian.

[rockershovel]

This is the Williams USRA Pacific, having a test run. The oval is Fastrack, compound curves of O72 transitions and O36 middle sections. The Pacific copes with O36 happily enough. I’m told it will happily run on O31 but I haven’t tried that yet. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5tdv34faa1o18f/Video 25-11-2019%2C 10 07 42.mov?dl=0

[rockershovel]

Back in the U.K. now.... on inspection, I find that the Lionel “scale wheel” front truck that came with one of my purchases, fits straight into the Wiliams loco. This isn’t “scale wheel” in the sense of “fine scale flanges”, rather in the sense of “near scale size wheels with coarse scale flanges”.

 

I must try this, to see what the effects are. I’d like to use it, rather than the small wheels common on these locos to allow the bogie to swing freely under cylinder casting. 

 

*this didn’t prove to be a correct conclusion, as posted elsewhere...

Edited March 21, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

On first inspection, the Williams “scale Hudson” runs very nicely after a quick check and oiling. I’ve only run it up and down the workbench, and nursed it around my O27 test-track (this surprised me, it’s a huge thing..). It’s clearly something of a rocket ship at higher voltages but seems to cope with lower speeds. 

 

The reversing unit is a little touchy, like its brass cousin (uncle?) but just requires a light hand on the levers. 

 

It seems to go nicely on 12v DC and like the K Line loco, doesn’t suffer from the “constant whistle” problem. 

 

It isn’t going to be worked hard. For NAROGG nights, I have a consist of five extruded aluminium coaches which are very light and free-running. 

 

I’ll give it more of a look when time allows but for now, it seems “all good”

 

[rockershovel]

I’ve had time now to sort through most of the souvenirs of the Florida trip, including NOS O42 dia O27 track and some refurbished straights. I’ve got some O54 too, but I posted that to myself.

 

Heres the Williams Hudson having a canter with some Lionel “Baby Madisons” (under-length for O31 track). I was told this loco was an uncontrollable rocketship but it seems sweet enough under, admittedly, quite light loads 

 

It’s a big heavy thing and definitely needs track clips! 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/da80wbdp96enr18/Video 19-02-2020%2C 13 22 57.mov?dl=0

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I’ve now unboxed the last of the Florida souvenirs, a selection of O42 and O54 radius, O27 profile track and some O42 exit switches. 

 

I’ve begun screwing down the track, on cork base, for the “O27 Max” door layout.

 

The MTH K4S defies any effort to start it. The electronics seem to be scrambled. I gather this is a common problem with PS1 systems. It’s a nice model and I’ve put it aside pending having some time to look at it properly. 

[sncf231e]

Staying at home does not mean that I cannot run trains in the garden, so I had a run with a Lionel Southern Crescent Limited:

 

 

Regards

Fred

Edited March 19, 2020 by sncf231e

[rockershovel]

I’ve just spent an hour or two in the garage, screwing down the track on my O27 “door layout”, which has improved the running no end. I’ll put the rest of the screws in now, and start the peripheral wiring (uncoupler tracks, binding posts etc) 

[rockershovel]

Another Lionel wrinkle!

 

The 24xx coaches had previously received some maintenance to perished wiring, but there was still a problem with occasional uncoupling. I did hope that screwing the track down would cure this, but not entirely... I’d seen mention of a problem involving the pick-up shoe on the uncoupler, fouling the frog of the points and causing this problem. 

 

The problem seemed to be focussed around one set one set of points, so I tried the “fix” - a small piece of tape over the frog! This seems to have cured it, and eliminated the sparking from some locos as well. 

 

[rockershovel]

Another “one from the vaults”... a Lionel #2026 2-6-2, dating from the late 1940s, from one of the original job lots.

 

The original loco would have looked like this.. Lionel produced various versions of this, one supposedly based on the PRR K4, all rated for O27 track. 

 

 

Mine looks like this..

 

 

There is no reversing unit fitted, but it seems to run freely in forwards (the open-frame Universal motor runs happily on AC or DC, but doesn’t reverse from the transformer on DC)

 

Front pony truck is missing, as is the valve gear (side rods and coupling rods are present and in good order). 

 

Smoke unit and headlight is beyond repair, I think. 

 

Body is a bit battered-looking but no cracks or chips, it will probably be ok with thorough cleaning and a coat of Dulcote or similar. 

 

There is a tender of the right period and type in another box. 

[rockershovel]

Had an evening in the garage, experimenting and fettling the track.

 

I tried electric points (switches) in a couple of places, but eventually came to the conclusion that they are more trouble than they are worth in such a small space and took them back out. Sweetened some of the alignment, fettled some track joints,  put some more screws in. 

 

Found a very useful commodity - 11mm x 8mm cable conduit. I’ve used this to tidy up the various trailing wires from the power connections and uncoupler tracks.

 

Next job - a base for the uncoupler buttons. 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I’ve taken a general decision that nothing will protrude behind the footprint of the original door, to protect everything while handling the board.

 

The uncoupler button base will be a 12” strip of 3”x1”, glued to the baseboard top, with protruding round screw heads for them to clip on to, three in a row.

 

The coal loader will be activated by a separate 16v accessory supply, not track current - so I need a switch for that, a DPST will suffice I think. 11mm x 8mm ducting has been affixed for this. 

 

Power supply to the layout will be via three pairs of binding posts, epoxied into holes drilled into the door frame. 

 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

Had a busy hour, crawling around on the floor in the office/study, moving the assorted clutter which tends to accumulate there. Laid a rather sinuous loop of track around various obstacles and ran some trains! An amusing diversion while spending an hour or two clearing some assorted reporting that I’d brought home from work, and taking part in a Skype meeting.....

 

The Williams brass USRA Pacific handled it well, but looked a bit long for the reverse curves. The Lionel semi-Scale Berkshire was just the ticket, this loco is growing on me. No fiddly tether, and the small drivers and low gearing give it good all-round performance in tight spots. 

 

First outing for some MPC-era and 90s boxcars, a bit light and a bit too large to mix with the post-War stuff but free-running, attractive bright colours and printing. 

[rockershovel]

Bought some O48 Fastrack to make a loop with O72 transitions. The big Williams Hudson ran nicely on its new pilot wheels but the loop is too big to leave in place in the space. 

 

Took it down to the garage, mostly to try it on 20v AC on the RailKing controller, on 12v on the Helmsman controller and as a try-out for the next NAROGG outing, whenever that might prove to be.. responded very smoothly on 12v DC and the whistle doesn’t sound, just as well considering the volume! Could only run it on the straights, it won’t handle the O27 curves now.. the tender drawbar is too short for that, and the new pilot wheels won’t cope either. Looking forward to giving it a gallop...

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Laid a temporary loop of O42 and O54 tubular track on the study floor, the Williams Hudson jogged round nicely. I’m quite pleased with this, as I have a plan for a loose-lay layout on a folding ping-pong table for the summer..

 

 

[rockershovel]

Got a couple of other locos out to try the O42/O54 loop.

 

Interesting to directly compare the 1980s semi-scale Hudson with the later, can-motored ones. The can motors are much smoother and more controllable. Interestingly enough the earlier open-frame motor doesn’t seem to benefit from the later RailKing controller, although the can motors definitely respond better. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by rockershovel

[sncf231e]

Another run with an American 3-rail locomotive and train; the locomotive is an older Weaver brass model.

 

Regards

Fred

[rockershovel]

Is that Railsounds? My K Line semi-Scale Hudson has it.