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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

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Several examples of four and six wheel coaches have survived into the preservation area and I enclose a picture of a Midland Railway third class coach no 78 ' with a luggage rack heading for Carlisle which bears a passing resemblance to one of Hattons'  coaches. 

015.JPG

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..... apart from the square panelling and unusual vents 'n' louvres ...... and the luggage rack ............................

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"Similar, apart from the differences" might be a suitable motto for this discussion.

 

Looking at No. 78 there for similarities, I've got:

  • 4 wheels
  •  

The Clayton 6-wheeler next along is more like.

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Looking at No. 78 there for similarities, I've got:

  • 4 wheels
  •  

 

Spooky, that's as far as I got too...

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

"Similar, apart from the differences" might be a suitable motto for this discussion.

 

Looking at No. 78 there for similarities, I've got:

  • 4 wheels
  •  

The Clayton 6-wheeler next along is more like.

 

Going a bit off topic but the LNER Quint Arts are technically a pair of 6 wheelers coupled outside of  3  x 4 wheelers. . . .

 

Andy

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10 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

Going a bit off topic but the LNER Quint Arts are technically a pair of 6 wheelers coupled outside of  3  x 4 wheelers. . . .

 

 

I'd dispute that (being me) since none of the vehicles can stand alone. They're articulated 24-wheelers - by analogy, Queen Victoria's carriage on the LNWR was originally an articulated 12-wheeler, before it was mounted on bogies. The only other articulated 24-wheeler I know of is a special gun barrel wagon the Midland had, for transporting battleship gun barrels from Sheffield to Barrow.

Edited by Compound2632
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On 27/11/2019 at 04:00, Dunsignalling said:

The definition of a generic model is one that draws elements from a number of prototypes without claiming to accurately represent any one of them. Hatton's will not be making GNR coaches, just generic (effectively freelance) ones, some of which will be finished in a representation of GNR livery. Is that too difficult a concept to grasp?

 

Therefore no generic model should (other than by sheer coincidence) look exactly like any prototype. One that did, would not be generic!

 

All versions of these coaches will be "wrong" to a greater or lesser degree. Some will be lucky and get models that are reasonably close to their desired prototype. Others (like you) will be offered items that are too far off to be acceptable, but nobody is forcing you to buy them.

 

I'd suggest that you have been hammering away at Hatton's plenty long enough for them to capitulate if they were ever going to and, as you evidently want coaches to run with a loco produced by Rapido, maybe you should be chasing them for something more appropriate?

 

John

 

Well if you had read what I have said I have been actually suggesting they spend a little more and do the correct roof  for GNR, still using the existing generic sides and under frame. Then the GNR repaints would look closer to prototype from a 2m viewing distance. 

 

Terry Flynn.

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9 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Well if you had read what I have said I have been actually suggesting they spend a little more and do the correct roof  for GNR, still using the existing generic sides and under frame. Then the GNR repaints would look closer to prototype from a 2m viewing distance. 

 

Terry Flynn.

But with the increased costs to make different roof profiles for different stock Hattons would have to charge more which could very easily reduce the amount they sell which will reduce their takings and make it likely they will make a loss which will be no good to anyone as the chances of any more accurate 1890's type coaches would disappear even further into the mists of time. 

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1 minute ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Well if you had read what I have said I have been actually suggesting they spend a little more and do the correct roof  for GNR, still using the existing generic sides and under frame. Then the GNR repaints would look closer to prototype from a 2m viewing distance. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

Hatton's have announced a basic selection of reasonably convincing, modestly priced, but ultimately freelance coaches aimed at people less choosy than yourself. They have set their parameters, in terms of investment and target selling price, at what seem to be prudent levels for what is actually a rather speculative project. After all, none of the establishes r-t-r producers has yet had the bottle to do anything similar.

 

Widening the range as you suggest would throw out their calculations in both respects, and probably extend the timescale beyond the point at which they want/need to see a return on their capital. 

 

Their statements so far indicate two chassis lengths, one with four wheels and one with six, a common end and roof profile, and an assortment of sides. Your wishes as to an alternative set of roofs and ends for the 6-wheelers could be fulfilled, and probably within their planned budget, simply by dropping the 4-wheelers altogether. However, that would upset a whole bunch of other people.

 

One day, if the initial releases sell well enough, I'd think it quite possible that Hatton's might branch out into something that better suits your needs,  

 

Just don't hold your breath, because I think that is likely to be at least 4-5 years down the road unless another manufacturer decides to venture down the veteran coaches route in the meantime.

 

John

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7 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Hatton's have announced a basic selection of reasonably convincing, modestly priced, but ultimately freelance coaches aimed at people less choosy than yourself. They have set their parameters, in terms of investment and target selling price, at what seem to be prudent levels for what is actually a rather speculative project. After all, none of the establishes r-t-r producers has yet had the bottle to do anything similar.

 

Widening the range as you suggest would throw out their calculations in both respects, and probably extend the timescale beyond the point at which they want/need to see a return on their capital. 

 

Their statements so far indicate two chassis lengths, one with four wheels and one with six, a common end and roof profile, and an assortment of sides. Your wishes as to an alternative set of roofs and ends for the 6-wheelers could be fulfilled, and probably within their planned budget, simply by dropping the 4-wheelers altogether. However, that would upset a whole bunch of other people.

 

One day, if the initial releases sell well enough, I'd think it quite possible that Hatton's might branch out into something that better suits your needs,  

 

Just don't hold your breath, because I think that is likely to be at least 4-5 years down the road unless another manufacturer decides to venture down the veteran coaches route in the meantime.

 

John

 

No they won't, nor will anybody else.

 

Because if these are successful it shows that "the market" is happy with a freelance fantasy.  Why would anybody bother doing research and trying to make things right?  Apparently, when you go further back in time making things up is more acceptable than it would be for modelling the current era or anything back to the 1950s.  I have no beef with Hattons doing these, they are the ones putting the money up. But this is not a step forward in the RTR availability of pre grouping. If anything, by satisfying a perceived thirst for 4 and 6 wheel coaches it will fill the void.

 

Craig W

 

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On 29/11/2019 at 04:16, Ravenser said:

 

 

Point taken,  but GN teak 6 wheelers and "something simple" don't go together . We established pretty quickly in the thread that the Hattons coaches weren't going to be convincing for the LNWR and GNR modeller (and there aren't an awful lot of the latter... Bill Bedford did some of the later Howlden bogie stock from the late 1890s as straightforward kits - but they were very short-run resin kits and not cheap. The market doesn't look like it's there )

 

These Hattons coaches are aimed at those who have bought recent RTR pre-grouping locos released in SECR , LBSCR , and GC livery , not to mention the various MR, GE and NE locos which are/will be available. There are quite a few locos available for each company ,  and that's clearly what  Hattons are aiming at.

 

The frustration arises from Terry's insistence that accurate RTR coaches for the Single must be the key focus for Hattons, and disregard every other company - when everyone this end had already concluded this project wasn't really going to suit the LNWR and GN

 

Although I always prefer accurate models, in this case I have been suggesting that a GNR roof profile and ends be done, using the generic tooling . That would result in  generic models with a GNR roof. The extra cost to do this could be as low as  5,000 pounds to do the 6 wheel coach roof and ends . Considering there would be over 2000 RTR Stirlings , and we assume 500 Stirling owners buy 7 generic 6 wheel coaches (based on a picture published in Single Wheeler Locomotives by Charles Fryer) then the extra cost per GNR 6 wheel coach is only 15 pence.

 

Terry Flynn.

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10 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

No they won't, nor will anybody else.

 

Because if these are successful it shows that "the market" is happy with a freelance fantasy.  Why would anybody bother doing research and trying to make things right?  Apparently, when you go further back in time making things up is more acceptable than it would be for modelling the current era or anything back to the 1950s.  I have no beef with Hattons doing these, they are the ones putting the money up. But this is not a step forward in the RTR availability of pre grouping. If anything, by satisfying a perceived thirst for 4 and 6 wheel coaches it will fill the void.

 

Craig W

 

But why would anyone else bother producing freelance 4/6-wheelers once Hatton's has done so and satisfied the base-line demand for such models at prices that will offer scant return for smaller production runs?

 

The natural progression would be towards something better at more upmarket prices. Just as the revolutionary standards (for the time) of Bachmann's BR Mk1 stock didn't constitute a dead end. Indeed, their unified set of designs in multiple liveries covering a broad spectrum of demand, offers as good a parallel for "generic" as you are ever likely to see.

 

Without them, I doubt we would have seen the explosion of prototypical coaching stock model that followed. Hornby's lit Pullmans, followed by Maunsells, Hawksworths, et al and, in turn, Bachmann's Birdcages, Portholes and even the Blue Pullman were all direct consequences of two things. Near saturation of the market for BR Mk1s meaning that further sales growth would have to come from something else, and customers realising they wanted a broader selection of coaches produced to a similar visual standard. Every market that gets opened up points the way to the next.

 

I'd suggest the reluctance of the r-t-r trade (up to now) to offer almost anything with a pre-group flavour is *due (at least in part) to* the bewildering array of options they need to wade through. The BR Regions and the Big Four are easy enough, but once you go back further than 1923, the four becomes around thirty and there isn't the depth of existing loco models whose popularity can provide the hints the manufacturers (and commissioners) need to make commercially sensible choices.  

 

How well Hatton's Genesis range sells, and which liveries sell best, will be of burning interest far beyond their own premises. The important thing (especially for the larger players) will be the ability to identify and quantify demand much more reliably than has hitherto been the case. Then, we might well see prototypical six-wheelers (in particular) for around £50 and £75 a pop start to emerge from Hornby and Bachmann respectively.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
* to * inserted to clarify
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2 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Well if you had read what I have said I have been actually suggesting they spend a little more and do the correct roof  for GNR, still using the existing generic sides and under frame. Then the GNR repaints would look closer to prototype from a 2m viewing distance. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Although I always prefer accurate models, in this case I have been suggesting that a GNR roof profile and ends be done, using the generic tooling . That would result in  generic models with a GNR roof. The extra cost to do this could be as low as  5,000 pounds to do the 6 wheel coach roof and ends . Considering there would be over 2000 RTR Stirlings , and we assume 500 Stirling owners buy 7 generic 6 wheel coaches (based on a picture published in Single Wheeler Locomotives by Charles Fryer) then the extra cost per GNR 6 wheel coach is only 15 pence.

 

Terry Flynn.

Why not ask a manufacturer such as Rapido what they can do with your £5,000. They will probably add a nought or two to that amount before you to get your different roof and ends.

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1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Although I always prefer accurate models, in this case I have been suggesting that a GNR roof profile and ends be done, using the generic tooling . That would result in  generic models with a GNR roof. The extra cost to do this could be as low as  5,000 pounds to do the 6 wheel coach roof and ends . Considering there would be over 2000 RTR Stirlings , and we assume 500 Stirling owners buy 7 generic 6 wheel coaches (based on a picture published in Single Wheeler Locomotives by Charles Fryer) then the extra cost per GNR 6 wheel coach is only 15 pence.

 

Terry Flynn.

The problem is that they still wouldn't be models of GNR coaches and there is no knowing how many other Stirling owners would accept them as you clearly would. Any more than we can know how many won't be bothered by the Hatton's models having a different roof profile.

 

I'd also suggest (perhaps cynically) that most purchases will be limited to how many of the coaches, coupled to the loco, it takes to fill one shelf in the display cabinet. Three or four is more likely to be typical in my view.

 

John

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9 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

No they won't, nor will anybody else.

 

Because if these are successful it shows that "the market" is happy with a freelance fantasy.  Why would anybody bother doing research and trying to make things right?  Apparently, when you go further back in time making things up is more acceptable than it would be for modelling the current era or anything back to the 1950s.  I have no beef with Hattons doing these, they are the ones putting the money up. But this is not a step forward in the RTR availability of pre grouping. If anything, by satisfying a perceived thirst for 4 and 6 wheel coaches it will fill the void.

 

Craig W

 

 

I believe that 'making things up' is in vogue right now.

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9 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Why would anybody bother doing research and trying to make things right? 

 

 

I would like to suggest that some effort has gone into making these models right, albeit fictional - possible, not fantastical. That's actually quite hard - it would have been very much easier to go for an accurate representation of a specific prototype but the evidence seems to be that that would have left at least as many commentators dissatisfied as are dissatisfied with the freelance approach. 

 

5 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

I believe that 'making things up' is in vogue right now.

 

In this case, the fiction is more evidence-based than other cases you may have in mind.

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10 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Well if you had read what I have said I have been actually suggesting they spend a little more and do the correct roof  for GNR, still using the existing generic sides and under frame. Then the GNR repaints would look closer to prototype from a 2m viewing distance. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

I've got a better idea. Since the GNR coaches are causing the most upset, why don't they drop them from the proposed range, and replace them with some other railway that hasn't been planned for yet?

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10 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

No they won't, nor will anybody else.

 

Because if these are successful it shows that "the market" is happy with a freelance fantasy.  Why would anybody bother doing research and trying to make things right?  Apparently, when you go further back in time making things up is more acceptable than it would be for modelling the current era or anything back to the 1950s.  I have no beef with Hattons doing these, they are the ones putting the money up. But this is not a step forward in the RTR availability of pre grouping. If anything, by satisfying a perceived thirst for 4 and 6 wheel coaches it will fill the void.

 

Craig W

 

With respect I dont think this argument holds water any longer. I know nothing sbout pre grouping coaches, however I do know a bit about class 37 deisel locos and have a reasonable sized collection of different coloured ones with different nose styles, liveries etc.  They are lovely models which look and run very well. Some modellers say that the window profile isnt quite right and the lamp brackets and footsteps are not in the correct place for specific locos.  All is good.

 

Then along comes a new manufacturer, who has announced they are to finesse this model with a completely new improved body shape, drive system, lighting, sound, and footsteps and lamp brackets specific to each loco, for a class of 12 vehicles.

 

All because some moddellers suggested in a poll that that is what they wanted.

 

So, keep asking for a 6 wheel eliptical roof, guards van, in the 1911 livery of the GNR, or whichever one is wished for, because it will happen when enough people do so. I believe that these Hattons coaches, which look fine, will whett the appetite and raise awareness of pre grouping to more modellers.

 

Best wishes to all

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So............

 

When I get round to restarting the project

 

My main in interest is the S&D, for modelling in the BR era

 

But I do have a soft spot for the IoW & my planned layout will be fairly simple, so if I fancy a change I can dig out my Terrier & for just over £100 hang some Southern Livery 6 wheelers behind it

 

Lovely!!

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Given the purported modelling abilities of some, is a continuing argument about a GNR roof that Hattons don't intend to produce a better use of time than the DIY solution to the perceived problem, as I've twice suggested previously?

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Sixty eight pages of what exactly ?

 

There is a quote from Zbigniew Brzezinski that may well describe the culture behind most of what has been written:

 

"The challenge for governments in the future will be to prevent man from effectively discovering his true self and keeping him locked in consumerist materialism."

 

Gibbo.

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12 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Although I always prefer accurate models, in this case I have been suggesting that a GNR roof profile and ends be done, using the generic tooling . That would result in  generic models with a GNR roof. The extra cost to do this could be as low as  5,000 pounds to do the 6 wheel coach roof and ends . Considering there would be over 2000 RTR Stirlings , and we assume 500 Stirling owners buy 7 generic 6 wheel coaches (based on a picture published in Single Wheeler Locomotives by Charles Fryer) then the extra cost per GNR 6 wheel coach is only 15 pence.

 

Terry Flynn.

I'd be interested to know how you came up with a figure of 5000 pounds. I suspect you picked a figure at random, I bet manufacturers would love your system of magical development costs. It would transform the hobby.

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8 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I'd be interested to know how you came up with a figure of 5000 pounds. I suspect you picked a figure at random, I bet manufacturers would love your system of magical development costs. It would transform the hobby.

 

I can think of some politicians who'd love it too, it would transform the country!

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11 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

 

Why not ask a manufacturer such as Rapido what they can do with your £5,000. They will probably add a nought or two to that amount before you to get your different roof and ends.

 

In the end I ticked "agree", but that was only after I'd stopped laughing at the thought of that conversation.  Good point, well brought out!

 

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

But why would anyone else bother producing freelance 4/6-wheelers once Hatton's has done so and satisfied the base-line demand for such models at prices that will offer scant return for smaller production runs?

 

The natural progression would be towards something better at more upmarket prices. Just as the revolutionary standards (for the time) of Bachmann's BR Mk1 stock didn't constitute a dead end. Indeed, their unified set of designs in multiple liveries covering a broad spectrum of demand, offers as good a parallel for "generic" as you are ever likely to see.

 

Without them, I doubt we would have seen the explosion of prototypical coaching stock model that followed. Hornby's lit Pullmans, followed by Maunsells, Hawksworths, et al and, in turn, Bachmann's Birdcages, Portholes and even the Blue Pullman were all direct consequences of two things. Near saturation of the market for BR Mk1s meaning that further sales growth would have to come from something else, and customers realising they wanted a broader selection of coaches produced to a similar visual standard. Every market that gets opened up points the way to the next.

 

I'd suggest the reluctance of the r-t-r trade (up to now) to offer almost anything with a pre-group flavour is *due (at least in part) to* the bewildering array of options they need to wade through. The BR Regions and the Big Four are easy enough, but once you go back further than 1923, the four becomes around thirty and there isn't the depth of existing loco models whose popularity can provide the hints the manufacturers (and commissioners) need to make commercially sensible choices.  

 

How well Hatton's Genesis range sells, and which liveries sell best, will be of burning interest far beyond their own premises. The important thing (especially for the larger players) will be the ability to identify and quantify demand much more reliably than has hitherto been the case. Then, we might well see prototypical six-wheelers (in particular) for around £50 and £75 a pop start to emerge from Hornby and Bachmann respectively.

 

John

 

John, spot on observations. 

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12 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I'd be interested to know how you came up with a figure of 5000 pounds. I suspect you picked a figure at random, I bet manufacturers would love your system of magical development costs. It would transform the hobby.

 

2 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I can think of some politicians who'd love it too, it would transform the country!

 

Right now, the foremost two are both claiming they can do the latter in ways that would only work if they had cracked the former. :jester:

 

John

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