Pre-Grouping train services across the Thames?

[Lacathedrale]

Ah HA!  Thank you! I think a discussion of what those services might have looked like in the 1980's would fall outside scope of this thread, so I will start another. Thank you!

 

[Lacathedrale]

Reading page 9-10 of Klapper's "London's Lost Railways" I wonder how much we have been sleeping on Earls Court as inspiration.

 

Though extant as a through station, it was for a time a terminus for Midland services from St Pancras via South Acton on the Super Outer Circle, and as circular services were curtailed was a terminating point for LNWR services from Broad Street via NLR on the outer Circle, and Metropolitan services on the middle circle. Though not passing through it was only a stones throw away from LSWR trains from Euston to Waterloo, and LBSCR trains from Willesden to Victoria.

[Compound2632]

Re-reading posts from the summer of 2020, I see I was being a bit cagey about the map showing Midland goods and mineral routes to points south of the river. At that time the map in question was on the Members' Area of the Midland Railway Study Centre website but it is now freely available for inspection; I've been posting snippets of it elsewhere. The map in question is the panel at the right-hand end:

 

 

[Embedded link to Midland Railway Study Centre Item 20628.]

 

[Nearholmer]

46 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

was a terminating point for LNWR services from Broad Street via NLR on the outer Circle,

The best (brief) period was when those services still ran right through, but changed from steam to electric locos at Earl’s Court.

 

The District electric locos are often forgotten, but I rather like their American look.

[Mikkel]

On 30/11/2021 at 19:50, Compound2632 said:

The map in question is the panel at the right-hand end:

 

Thanks for posting that. Interesting how the map ignores GWR South Lambeth goods, which was opened in 1911 - the year before the map was finalised. The subsequent revisions in 1916 and 1923 haven't bothered to add it either 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Mikkel

[Lacathedrale]

We spoke about LSWR services terminating at Ludgate Hill after their circuitous journey, but a pre-1891 picture has surfaced of Holborn Viaduct (which I have enclosed a snippet) which shows LSWR 206, a Class 0298 Beattie Well Tank sitting in Platform 1:

 

 

In Platform 2 is Onyx, a rebuilt tender locomotive of the Ruby-class of 1861! Sounds amazing, but less than 30 years old in this photo...

[Lacathedrale]

This document dated 1881 suggests that it would be unlikely for an LSWR loco to be at HV after that date:

 

[Compound2632]

I came across this today:

 

MR Traffic Committee minute No. 30729 of 4 November 1898

 

Working of traffic exchanged with South Eastern Company to Hither Green.

                              The General Manager reported that in order to avoid the serious delays which are experienced in the neighbourhood of London Bridge, the South Eastern Company has decided to provide a new sorting depot at Hither Green, 5 miles 21 chains further down the line, to which point the Midland Company is asked to work the coal &c traffic for exchange.

                              It is proposed that the present allowance of 1d per ton made to the Midland Company for haulage to London Bridge be increased to 3d on traffic out of which the South Eastern proportion exceeds 2s/6d, and 2d when that company’s receipts are not more than 2s/6d.

                              It was stated that the improved facilities will enable Midland engines to run through to Hither Green in less time than is now taken in working a trip to London Bridge, and it was, therefore

                              Agreed to recommend to the Board that the suggested arrangements be adopted.

 

[TNA RAIL 491/161]

[Nearholmer]

I knew that HG yard dated from c1900, but I’d not really pondered how things worked before it was established …… the idea of exchanging goods traffic at London Bridge makes the mind boggle.

[Tom Burnham]

They would still have had to run through London Bridge but I guess there would have been no need to stop. Presumably before Hither Green yard the wagons would have gone to Bricklayers Arms?  I'll have to have a look at some 1890s SER working timetables and see how it was worked.

[Compound2632]

Here's an extract from the "M.R. London Depots with Routes of Access" portion of the map posted above, dated April 1912, revised 1916 and 1923, which shows Midland trains working to Bricklayer's Arms as well as Hither Green:

 

 

[Crop from scan of Midland Railway Study Centre item 20628.]

 

It was just around this time that the 2441 Class condensing 0-6-0Ts were introduced in the London area (the direct ancestor of the LMS Standard 3F 0-6-0T); before this Midland goods trains were worked by condensing 0-4-4Ts, so I wonder if there was any connection with this new longer run out to Hither Green?

Edited January 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Which poses questions about how the Brivklayers Arms bit was worked, both after MR through running, and with handover at London Bridge: did the loco run round, or was it a propelling move down the branch, or did a shunting loco pop out to “top and tail” for that bit?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Which poses questions about how the Brivklayers Arms bit was worked, both before MR through running, and with handover at London Bridge:

 

I tried "Hither Green", "Bricklayers Arms" (with and without apostrophe), and "London Bridge" in the MRS catalogue search but the only hits I got were for the latter: one ticket, Kings Cross to Crystal Palace, issued by the Midland at Derby; one postcard of the bridge itself; one tourist guide; and one of Annett's patents. I had been hoping some south London photographer would have found a Midland engine laying over at one of these locations worth a glass plate...

[Tom Burnham]

I found some working timetables on the SEC Society website, but nothing for the SER from the period shortly before Hither Green yard opened. In 1902 it looks as if the 'foreign' trains via London Bridge to Bricklayers Arms would have run round at Surrey Canal Junction. Incidentally HG received Midland, GN, GE and LNWR goods trains at that time.

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

I found some working timetables on the SEC Society website, but nothing for the SER from the period shortly before Hither Green yard opened. In 1902 it looks as if the 'foreign' trains via London Bridge to Bricklayers Arms would have run round at Surrey Canal Junction. Incidentally HG received Midland, GN, GE and LNWR goods trains at that time.

 

GN trains, like those of the Midland, came via the Met Widened Lines. The GE, via the East London Joint Line. But how did LNW trains get there?

[Nearholmer]

WLER, Wandsworth Road, Nunhead, Lewisham?

[Tom Burnham]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

WLER, Wandsworth Road, Nunhead, Lewisham?

No, the connections at Lewisham weren't put in until (from memory) 1929. Off the WLER to Longhedge Junction then round the Chatham's metropolitan line to Blackfriars Goods - which was south of the river - then down the spur to London Bridge. Everyone concerned must have breathed a sigh of relief when the Nunhead to Lewisham connection finally opened. Incidentally one of the Midland goods trains from Hither Green is shown as stopping at London Bridge if required to pick up fruit traffic!

[pH]

A couple of relevant articles:

 

- Trains Annual 1965. “From S.E.C.R. to G.N.R. - a cross-London journey of 1906”. A detailed description, with historical information, of a journey from Woolwich Arsenal to Wood Green on a through SECR suburban train.

 

- Steam Days, December 2002. “London’s North to South Freight Traffic”. A look at the Cross-London freight traffic in the days of steam. Includes a 24-hour census of movements to the Southern Region in September 1949, with details of routes, number of trains and totals of wagons. It includes pre-grouping historical information. Most photos are in BR days, a few from pre-Nationalisation times, none pre-Grouping.

[number6]

I can’t be the only one following this thread to get the emails from:

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/
 

The last list of accident reports had a couple more from the Farringdon-Ludgate Hill section. This one is a collision between two Midland goods from 1878

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=6119

 

To quote: “I have inquired into a large number of collisions altogether, but I do not recollect one where the greater portion of the servants of the railway companies concerned, have displayed so much indifference and so much inattention to the proper performance of their duties as in this particular case.”

 

Feels like confusion in this instance came from the fact that the bank engine only assisted Midland trains and any GNR service would be left to their own devices (often much lighter loaded anyway). Mistake an MR for a GNR train in the dark and things could go wrong.

I am amazed how long trains waited in the murk and dark for the banker from the spur. This particular night ‘the banker’ ended up being a following Midland train and the loss of a couple of brake vans and some injuries.
 

In these reports I am always interested in the crew descriptions detail their working conditions and responsibilities. And then the atmosphere of Victorian London that seeps in despite the technical nature of the writing. 

[Nearholmer]

9 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

stopping at London Bridge if required to pick up fruit traffic!

From the Southwark pineapple gardens?

 

Or, more likely I guess, from various parts of Kent. Do you recall the seasonal strawberry specials, and daily fruit and veg specials, that we explored in another thread? Maybe the odd van was dropped from those, ready to go forward to the Midland. Was it them, or the LNWR that had a Fruit Dock at Birmingham?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Or, more likely I guess, from various parts of Kent. 

 

One can easily imagine such traffic coming up to London Bridge in the guard's vans of terminating South Eastern or Brighton passenger trains - which implies transhipment...

 

Although the thought of teetering stacks of fruit baskets being barrowed across the London Bridge concourse at rush-hour fills the modern mind with dread, I suspect that the quantities involved make this more likely than a through van?

 

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

to go forward to the Midland. Was it them, or the LNWR that had a Fruit Dock at Birmingham?

 

I'm sure both had facilities for handling fruit traffic although I suspect you may be thinking of the fish dock on the Midland side of New Street. The Midland handled considerable fruit traffic from Evesham.

[Compound2632]

Midland fruit traffic from Hither Green:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue image of MRSC item 21300.]

[WFPettigrew]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Midland fruit traffic from Hither Green

 

Stephen

 

What a fascinating document!

 

What would be the vehicles used for the fruit destined for Heysham and on to Belfast?

 

I feel like a contestant on QI, dreading mentioning the fruit vans a la Slaters, and getting the klaxon of doom for giving an obvious but wrong answer...!

 

All the best

 

Neil

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

What would be the vehicles used for the fruit destined for Heysham and on to Belfast?

 

I feel like a contestant on QI, dreading mentioning the fruit vans a la Slaters, and getting the klaxon of doom for giving an obvious but wrong answer...!

 

I'm unsure how to write down the sound made by the klaxon of doom, but consider it honked!

 

On the one hand, the vehicles that are the subject of the Slaters kit are described in the diagram book as fish trucks not as milk vans. On the other hand - or possibly the same hand - they weren't built until 1920 - diagram D1272. Definitely on the other hand, I suppose it's possible that at the peak of the fruit season fish trucks might be pressed into service, after being thoroughly washed out, one hopes. (But what did the fish do then?)

 

In 1913, the vans would have been 4-wheelers, either 20 ft or 25 ft, diagrams D416 - D419. There were also a couple of retired post office sorting carriages converted for fruit traffic and in early 1911 ten old passenger carriages in duplicate stock had their internal fittings removed and replaced by shelves for fruit traffic. These are thought to have included a couple of 40 ft brake thirds of lot 5. [Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 pp. 420-430.] 

 

I think I've read that the 6-wheeled passenger-rated motor car vans D414 / D414A were sometimes pressed into fruit traffic use but I can't find that stated in Lacy & Dow just now. I suppose passenger brake vans of both the 4-wheel and 6-wheel variety, D529 and D530, might also be used.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Compound2632

[WFPettigrew]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm unsure how to write down the sound made by the klaxon of doom, but consider it honked!

 

On the one hand, the vehicles that are the subject of the Slaters kit are described in the diagram book as fish trucks not as milk vans. On the other hand - or possibly the same hand - they weren't built until 1920 - diagram D1272. Definitely on the other hand, I suppose it's possible that at the peak of the fruit season fish trucks might be pressed into service, after being thoroughly washed out, one hopes. (But what did the fish do then?)

 

In 1913, the vans would have been 4-wheelers, either 20 ft or 25 ft, diagrams D416 - D419. There were also a couple of retired post office sorting carriages converted for fruit traffic and in early 1911 ten old passenger carriages in duplicate stock had their internal fittings removed and replaced by shelves for fruit traffic. These are thought to have included a couple of 40 ft brake thirds of lot 5. [Lacy & Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 2 pp. 420-430.] 

 

I think I've read that the 6-wheeled passenger-rated motor car vans D414 / D414A were sometimes pressed into fruit traffic use but I can't find that stated in Lacy & Dow just now. I suppose passenger brake vans of both the 4-wheel and 6-wheel variety, D529 and D530, might also be used.

 

Thank you - I am glad my suspicions about overly obvious answers were correct! 

 

Fascinating what they did use...

 

One other question - would the 3.30 "London to Heysham" be a passenger or freight working?  It's curious in part for the use of the word London, rather than St Pancras, or Brent, or..  Clearly the sort of vans you referred to would be likely to be NPCS and suitable for adding to a passenger train.

Edited January 24, 2023 by WFPettigrew
And another thing..