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2 hours ago, Zomboid said:

You've got to compromise somewhere... Personally I would have the platforms off scene beyond a bridge at the end of the goods yard, but that might not be typical of the midland either. An Axminster or Botley style mid platform bridge might be another option, but again, those are LSWR examples and not common there...

 

It would be quite prototypical Kildwick and Crossbills Station had the platforms separated from the goods yard by a road overbridge.

 

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

It is difficult because you're trying to do the almost impossible and what you've got so far (or maybe what you had a few iterations back) is actually pretty amazing!

 

It's worth trying to fit the required extra loop in (and crossovers?) but if you can't then I think you've probably already reached the best possible compromise for this form of the plan.

 

The only other planning avenue open to you then would be to start again with a blank canvas and try something deliberately different. You might find a better plan or that the current plan is as good as it gets.

 

BTW: In my last suggestion, cassettes were 1080mm long and the operating well was 1660 * 1380mm (minus a couple of fillets in the corners).

 

 

Thank you for the compliment. It certainly is starting to feel like the plan is reaching the stage where it can be taken no further.

 

I will be playing around with the fiddle yard tonight to see what I can come up with.

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Ok Ladies and Gentlemen below is what I believe to be the maximum amount of fiddle yard I can create.

 

Every track is capable of holding at least a 4' long train if not longer, the middle two tracks are bi-directional aswell.

 

As ever your feedback is always appreciated :heart_mini:

2020-05-25 (4).png

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The thing that comes to mind is can you do the operations you want to in that FY? You mentioned having reversible passenger trains, so will you be able to get the locos onto the back when you want to in whatever means you want to do it? 

 

There's really no space to even suggest a station bottom right, so I assume you're ok with that?

 

So long as you're happy with the answers to those, then I think this design is as good as it's ever going to get.

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14 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The thing that comes to mind is can you do the operations you want to in that FY? You mentioned having reversible passenger trains, so will you be able to get the locos onto the back when you want to in whatever means you want to do it? 

 

There's really no space to even suggest a station bottom right, so I assume you're ok with that?

 

So long as you're happy with the answers to those, then I think this design is as good as it's ever going to get.

 

I am going to go down the route you suggested of having the station offscene at the other side of the scenic break.

 

In regards to the fiddle yard I can swap the locos over to different ends so I can forsee this being an issue (someone of course may see something that I don't!)

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2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

How do trains in the up loops get onto the down line when reversing without appearing on scene running wrong road and vice versa?

 

 

Only the centre 2 roads are reversible. As far as I can tell this will work on the design unless you have spotted a problem?

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If loop 1 is the inner, then trains on 1-4 can get access the inner circuit, and 3-6 can access the outer circuit. Inner circuit trains can get to 1-3, outer circuit trains can get to 4-6. So an inner to outer reversal would happen in loop 3, and an outer to inner would use loop 4.

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48 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If loop 1 is the inner, then trains on 1-4 can get access the inner circuit, and 3-6 can access the outer circuit. Inner circuit trains can get to 1-3, outer circuit trains can get to 4-6. So an inner to outer reversal would happen in loop 3, and an outer to inner would use loop 4.

 

So question on the scenic side of things.

 

To disguise the sharpness of the curve in the bottom right hand corner what would be the best way to align the road overbridge?

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42 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Only the centre 2 roads are reversible. As far as I can tell this will work on the design unless you have spotted a problem?

 

49 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

If loop 1 is the inner, then trains on 1-4 can get access the inner circuit, and 3-6 can access the outer circuit. Inner circuit trains can get to 1-3, outer circuit trains can get to 4-6. So an inner to outer reversal would happen in loop 3, and an outer to inner would use loop 4.

 

I see... Sorry, I was thinking about it differently (wrongly).

 

So if there's something standing in the relevant centre road, you can't reverse another train. You'd have to stash it in one of the other loops until the blocking train moves (either way) then run the stashed train round again and into the centre road.

 

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1 minute ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

I see... Sorry, I was thinking about it differently (wrongly).

 

So if there's something standing in the relevant centre road, you can't reverse another train. You'd have to stash it in one of the other loops until the blocking train moves (either way) then run the stashed train round again and into the centre road.

 

 

in effect yes, dont forget that their is 2 refuge sidings in the scenic area aswell so it can be worked into an operating session :biggrin_mini2:

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10 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

So question on the scenic side of things.

 

To disguise the sharpness of the curve in the bottom right hand corner what would be the best way to align the road overbridge?

 I'd do it with mock ups once you've got the track down, see what you like best.

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11 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

So question on the scenic side of things.

 

To disguise the sharpness of the curve in the bottom right hand corner what would be the best way to align the road overbridge?

 

How about this - though I think something similar may have been suggested a while back ...

 

1822867944_airehead2jpg.png.b99e871e6d4d2a37b478241cf624a372.png

 

Apologies for pathetic Paint skills!

 

 

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12 hours ago, Aire Head said:

To disguise the sharpness of the curve in the bottom right hand corner what would be the best way to align the road overbridge?

 

I wouldn't use a bridge.  As I suggested early on, a large foreground building would be more appropriate and a mockup could be fiddled for best effect. I would combine a loading bank for one or both the short sidings with the platform, which seems to have been common Midland practice.  You might even be able to suggest the end of the station buildings (even if just the gents).

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To squeeeeze a bit more out of the space and get a bit more operating flexibility, how about moving the top crossover currently between loops 3 and 4 from it's current position onto the lifting section?

 

OK, that makes the lifting section a bit more complicated but the pay off would be that in one direction all three loops would be reversible and loops 2,3,4 and 5 would become slightly longer.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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On 25/05/2020 at 00:22, Flying Pig said:

The need to keep your slips straight is very constraining and changing to long ladders of points would lose a great deal of Midland character.

 

 

Sorry to throw a late spanner in the works, but as I read it, you need a bottom straight section equivalent to two slips and a point with your current plan.

 

However, if you move the goods yard to the inside of the circuit, you can actually reduce that to about one slip length and almost certainly have a less cramped yard.  Additionally, you only need room for a refuge siding between the main line and the edge of the layout, which gives a little more breathing space all round if you want to use it.

 

The sketch below is based on Dent, admittedly not an Aire Valley station, with additional sidings suggested that didn't exist on the prototype.

 

Note how the main line only really needs to be straight through the slip X and can begin to curve immediately each side of it if necessary.  The trailing crossover to slip Y will need some thought as a point connected directly to Y will create a very sharpe curve on the main line.

 

Anyone care to draw this properly and see if it works?

 

Studio_20200526_125507.jpg.a41f5f263b221c8b1ad67ec02d36ea2d.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Sorry to throw a late spanner in the works, but as I read it, you need a bottom straight section equivalent to two slips and a point with your current plan.

 

However, if you move the goods yard to the inside of the circuit, you can actually reduce that to about one slip length and almost certainly have a less cramped yard.  Additionally, you only need room for a refuge siding between the main line and the edge of the layout, which gives a little more breathing space all round if you want to use it.

 

The sketch below is based on Dent, admittedly not an Aire Valley station, with additional sidings suggested that didn't exist on the prototype.

 

Note how the main line only really needs to be straight through the slip X and can begin to curve immediately each side of it if necessary.  The trailing crossover to slip Y will need some thought as a point connected directly to Y will create a very sharpe curve on the main line.

 

Anyone care to draw this properly and see if it works?

 

Studio_20200526_125507.jpg.a41f5f263b221c8b1ad67ec02d36ea2d.jpg

I flipped the goods yard to the inside in my suggestion for similar reasons. 154990830_EastburnConcept2.png.2430f1283e226db009ce3c16707de31a.png

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 26/05/2020 at 12:18, Harlequin said:

To squeeeeze a bit more out of the space and get a bit more operating flexibility, how about moving the top crossover currently between loops 3 and 4 from it's current position onto the lifting section?

 

OK, that makes the lifting section a bit more complicated but the pay off would be that in one direction all three loops would be reversible and loops 2,3,4 and 5 would become slightly longer.

 

 

This is something I will definitely explore and maybe see if it allows me any additional space to move the trailing crossover at the opposite end so that I can achieve the same effect.

 

On 26/05/2020 at 12:57, Flying Pig said:

 

Sorry to throw a late spanner in the works, but as I read it, you need a bottom straight section equivalent to two slips and a point with your current plan.

 

However, if you move the goods yard to the inside of the circuit, you can actually reduce that to about one slip length and almost certainly have a less cramped yard.  Additionally, you only need room for a refuge siding between the main line and the edge of the layout, which gives a little more breathing space all round if you want to use it.

 

The sketch below is based on Dent, admittedly not an Aire Valley station, with additional sidings suggested that didn't exist on the prototype.

 

Note how the main line only really needs to be straight through the slip X and can begin to curve immediately each side of it if necessary.  The trailing crossover to slip Y will need some thought as a point connected directly to Y will create a very sharpe curve on the main line.

 

Anyone care to draw this properly and see if it works?

 

Studio_20200526_125507.jpg.a41f5f263b221c8b1ad67ec02d36ea2d.jpg

 

I have started playing around with this and I am currently struggling to get the alignments I desire without eating into the operating well and therefore risking making sections inaccessible.

 

Definitely worth a look though

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  • 2 weeks later...

Which way does the door open?   I had a headshunt up behind my door on a tapering baseboard, the door never opened fully anyway and the track only made about 2" difference but allowed me room for my loco depot headshunt.   A cassette could also slide up behind the door

For FYs Iike to maximise space which means I like to set a mnimum radius and use it for all the hidden curves instead of going for progressively larger with every track. Saves a bit of space, every little helps and gives that extra bit of room for uncoupling etc.   I would also trim away the extra baseboard  and use diagonal bracing off the walls to maximise usable space for junk under the baseboard while allowing maximum space for your mates to pile in and "help" operate, chill, sink a few tinnies, indulge in banter, delete as applicable.  I find nothing takes the eye like a sharp corner on a baseboard edge and I like using curved hardboard to finish the baseboard edge.

Watch the proximity of rivers to tunnels unless you model Switzerland or Buxton _ Millers Dale,  Rivers often go under stations and under goods yards, at Millers Dale it was easier to build a separate viaduct for the loops than to carve a chunk out of the hillside, Stroud GWR has the platforms on a Viaduct.   There is no good reason not to put platforms on lifting or lift out sections. Lots of good reasons not to put sidings on lifting sections, unless the sidings are cosmetic and the wagons securely held in place by magnets or long wood screws!   It takes ages to remove the stock. Our double deck lift out lets people in or out of the shed in under 15 seconds

Screenshot (377).png

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@DavidCBroad sadly the door opens the opposite way as to how you have shown on your diagram.

 

Fortunately the terrain of the Aire Valley certainly lends itself variable heights! That said I'm am not set on a river as a terrain feature.

 

The curves base board edges are a very good idea thank you for that!

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Do you actually need the door ? By which I mean does it need to open and close when the layout is in use ? If you can leave it fully open with the lifting section right in the corner (ie stopping it being closed) you can gain a few inches on the scenic section and the fiddle yard by reducing the amount by which it has to intrude towards the centre of the room. Just be sure it can't drop down and lock you out when the door is shut ! 

Edited by Wheatley
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10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Do you actually need the door ? By which I mean does it need to open and close when the layout is in use ? If you can leave it fully open with the lifting section right in the corner (ie stopping it being closed) you can gain a few inches on the scenic section and the fiddle yard by reducing the amount by which it has to intrude towards the centre of the room. Just be sure it can't drop down and lock you out when the door is shut ! 

 

I'd rather keep the door free to swing As I have visions of my partner coming into the room while in using it and bashing the door into the boards!

 

Also there is the risk as mentioned of locking myself out of the room!

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  • 1 month later...

So life is moving in the right direction to be able to get started on the project soon!

 

I have an updated version of the plan as like a clown i managed to delete the previous one by accident :banghead:

 

However through a few little changes I have somehow managed to make the fiddle yard work the way I originally intended and bring back the edges of the station as well. Things like table edges aren't 100% confirmed yet but I certainly appreciate any thoughts on whats there so far.

 

 

2020-08-23 (2).png

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What is the crossover at the bottom (goods to main) for exactly? Doesn't it just duplicate the one at the end of the loop? You wouldn't want or need to shunt the yard from the running line and departures can be made from the loop in either direction. Otherwise it all looks good and very Midland like.

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5 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

What is the crossover at the bottom (goods to main) for exactly? Doesn't it just duplicate the one at the end of the loop? You wouldn't want or need to shunt the yard from the running line and departures can be made from the loop in either direction. Otherwise it all looks good and very Midland like.

 

The crossover at the bottom is to allow the loop to be used as a refuge and for the yard to still be able to be shunted as is a feature of several stations on this line.

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