Eastburn - Aire Valley 1950s

[Zomboid]

You've shown a signal at the down end of the lie-by on the up main - would that be there as well as one at the connection? It feels to me as though you should move it up, rather than add another one.

 

The signalbox ought to be right in front of the main set of pointwork too, to minimise the length of the rodding, and to ensure that the signaller can see the tail lamp of anything going into the lie-by without it having to run too far up the line.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

You've shown a signal at the down end of the lie-by on the up main - would that be there as well as one at the connection? It feels to me as though you should move it up, rather than add another one.

 

The signalbox ought to be right in front of the main set of pointwork too, to minimise the length of the rodding, and to ensure that the signaller can see the tail lamp of anything going into the lie-by without it having to run too far up the line.

 

Probably correct. That outer home should probably be off-scene. It's one of those problems that arise from compression.

 

The signal box needs to be where it is to control the level crossing. Otherwise, yes it would be closer to the pointwork. 

 

It might be better for the signalbox to be on the other side of the track as the signalman would have a better view round the curve.

[Michael Edge]

Your diagrams appear to show four equally spaced tracks - you shouldn't have this, there should be a 6ft space between the running lines and a 10ft space to the other tracks. If you use a scale 6ft space you can't put a signal post in it either, you can in a 10ft space. The overall idea looks good now though.

[Aire Head]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Yes, you have rightly avoided distants as the distants for this section would indeed be offscene.

 

The exception would be if there is another signalbox close by, controlling a junction or an access to sidings. In which case you might have distant arms on some of the home signals. These are controlled by the off-scene signalbox but a mechanism on the signal, known as "slotting", stops the distant arm being pulled "off" when the home signal is "on".

 

I think I will keep stick with keeping the distants off scene.

 

Would ground signals be required for any moves over the trailing crossovers?

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Probably correct. That outer home should probably be off-scene. It's one of those problems that arise from compression

There'd probably be benefits to drawing out the whole signal box diagram including the off scene bits (and maybe any interaction with adjacent boxes), rather than just signalling the scenic bit of the layout.

[Aire Head]

 

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Your diagrams appear to show four equally spaced tracks - you shouldn't have this, there should be a 6ft space between the running lines and a 10ft space to the other tracks. If you use a scale 6ft space you can't put a signal post in it either, you can in a 10ft space. The overall idea looks good now though.

 

Thanks, I will look at amending that tonight.

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

You've shown a signal at the down end of the lie-by on the up main - would that be there as well as one at the connection? It feels to me as though you should move it up, rather than add another one.

 

The signalbox ought to be right in front of the main set of pointwork too, to minimise the length of the rodding, and to ensure that the signaller can see the tail lamp of anything going into the lie-by without it having to run too far up the line.

 

The signal box is also handling a level crossing, which would be the priority in this case?

 

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Probably correct. That outer home should probably be off-scene. It's one of those problems that arise from compression.

 

The signal box needs to be where it is to control the level crossing. Otherwise, yes it would be closer to the pointwork. 

 

It might be better for the signalbox to be on the other side of the track as the signalman would have a better view round the curve.

 

 

Regards the curve I'm actually thinking to use a but of artistic/modellers licence here and act like it doesn't exist since the while layout is on a curve past 180 degress. Hope that makes sense

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

There'd probably be benefits to drawing out the whole signal box diagram including the off scene bits (and maybe any interaction with adjacent boxes), rather than just signalling the scenic bit of the layout.

 

I can do that tonight, I was going to assume that the adjacent blocks are plain track.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Your diagrams appear to show four equally spaced tracks - you shouldn't have this, there should be a 6ft space between the running lines and a 10ft space to the other tracks. If you use a scale 6ft space you can't put a signal post in it either, you can in a 10ft space. The overall idea looks good now though.

 

Not necessarily, there are lots of places where the ten foot is less than 10ft, or the six foot is greater than 6ft. It’s more a label than a rule (but if it can be accommodated I agree it would look good)

[Aire Head]

7 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

Not necessarily, there are lots of places where the ten foot is less than 10ft, or the six foot is greater than 6ft. It’s more a label than a rule (but if it can be accommodated I agree it would look good)

 

I'm going to have to see what can be done, the radius of the refuge is already around 24"

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

Not necessarily, there are lots of places where the ten foot is less than 10ft, or the six foot is greater than 6ft. It’s more a label than a rule (but if it can be accommodated I agree it would look good)

Yes but you shouldn't have more than one 6ft across the tracks.

In answer to another question you will need plenty of ground signals for backing and crossover moves.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Yes but you shouldn't have more than one 6ft across the tracks.

 

Depends on the layout, unless I’ve misunderstood you? A track layout with two fast lines and two local lines would have two “six foots” and one “ten foot”, but as already mentioned the ten foot doesn’t have to be any wider than the six foot. There are lots of locations where three or more lines are equally spaced. 

[Aire Head]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Yes but you shouldn't have more than one 6ft across the tracks.

In answer to another question you will need plenty of ground signals for backing and crossover moves.

 

1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

 

Depends on the layout, unless I’ve misunderstood you? A track layout with two fast lines and two local lines would have two “six foots” and one “ten foot”, but as already mentioned the ten foot doesn’t have to be any wider than the six foot. There are lots of locations where three or more lines are equally spaced. 

 

As I'm already using peco streamline centres which scales out at about 7/8 foot the challenge is going to be making a noticeable difference in the centres

[Michael Edge]

If you are using Peco geometry you won't have a problem with spacing, there will be room for signals anywhere.

[Titanius Anglesmith]

8 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

 

As I'm already using peco streamline centres which scales out at about 7/8 foot the challenge is going to be making a noticeable difference in the centres

I wouldn’t worry about it too much 

[Aire Head]

4 minutes ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

I wouldn’t worry about it too much 

 

Have just had a crack at creating the 10 foot and the carnage it caused on the geometries has told me I can live with it and make it work.

 

A thought has occurred, shouldn't both entrances to the goods yard be signalled for allowing exit onto the main lines? Also would grounds signals be used for any reversing moves?

[Joseph_Pestell]

24 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Have just had a crack at creating the 10 foot and the carnage it caused on the geometries has told me I can live with it and make it work.

 

A thought has occurred, shouldn't both entrances to the goods yard be signalled for allowing exit onto the main lines? Also would grounds signals be used for any reversing moves?

 

Creating the "ten-foot" should not cause any issues with geometry. Just put in a piece of straight track about 2" long between the two points.

 

Because you have quite tight curves, you can't do anything about the slightly oversize 6' that the Peco points give you.

 

Even though the goods yard can be shunted from either direction, the railway would probably find it more convenient to shunt all (or most) trains from the down line. The occasional shunt across the single slip would probably be a short cut of wagons from a train set back into the lie-by. So the exit from the yard at that end would just be a shunt move.

 

If a whole train was starting across to the up from the yard, it could be done by way of a signal (green flag/lamp) by the signalman.

 

I understand your point about ignoring the curve and thinking of the layout as straight. I once designed an entirely circular layout based on Bromsgrove on the same premise. But I think that I would still put the signalbox on the other side of the tracks. It's just a more interesting side to look at.

 

Unless, there is a separate level crossing keeper (unwanted expense at a small location), the box has to be by the level crossing. In the real world, the pointwork would be placed there as well but that is going to be difficult in the context of the curves on your layout.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

19 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

That would certainly be interesting to know re cattle docks.

 

 

Just grabbed the 1904 RCH book. All stations along that stretch of line handled livestock apart from Saltaire (passenger/parcels only.

[Aire Head]

So I've done a plain diagram with no signals showing the trackplan.

 

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Creating the "ten-foot" should not cause any issues with geometry. Just put in a piece of straight track about 2" long between the two points.

 

Because you have quite tight curves, you can't do anything about the slightly oversize 6' that the Peco points give you.

 

Even though the goods yard can be shunted from either direction, the railway would probably find it more convenient to shunt all (or most) trains from the down line. The occasional shunt across the single slip would probably be a short cut of wagons from a train set back into the lie-by. So the exit from the yard at that end would just be a shunt move.

 

If a whole train was starting across to the up from the yard, it could be done by way of a signal (green flag/lamp) by the signalman.

 

I understand your point about ignoring the curve and thinking of the layout as straight. I once designed an entirely circular layout based on Bromsgrove on the same premise. But I think that I would still put the signalbox on the other side of the tracks. It's just a more interesting side to look at.

 

Unless, there is a separate level crossing keeper (unwanted expense at a small location), the box has to be by the level crossing. In the real world, the pointwork would be placed there as well but that is going to be difficult in the context of the curves on your layout.

 

I think the track centres and signal box location will have to be a compromise unfortunately. If I can make it as convincing as possible though that would be great.

[Joseph_Pestell]

It is looking pretty good already.

 

There were locations where the full-size railway could not widen out the gap between running line and siding to the full 10'. If no space to accommodate a signal post, that gives you the excuse to have a nice bracket signal. Quite common on former Midland routes.

 

You might be able to move your pointwork right a bit to be in front of the signal cabin. But you will need to be brave enough to bend the single slip. See Graham Nicholas' work on Grantham and Hills of the North.

[Aire Head]

Not quite sure I'm confident enough to start bending slips just yet!

 

A signal bracket is definately a thought although I'd imagine sourcing or making one would be a challenge!

[Zomboid]

50 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

So I've done a plain diagram with no signals showing the trackplan.

Presumably the box also covers the area south of the station?

We're well outside my area of understanding here, but I'd guess as a starter you need a total of 3 or 4 signals on each main line (some off scene)

[Aire Head]

Proposed signal diagram, hopefully self explanatory, I have included signals that would be off-scene at the far ends of the diagrams.

 

As always any feedback you lovely people have will be greatly appreciated. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

That looks about right.

 

My only slight doubt is as to whether you really need the second (left-hand on the plan) crossover and its shunt signals. Not sure what purpose it serves.

 

Down starter should be in front of the level crossing (on the platform) rather than after it. Otherwise road traffic has to be stopped much earlier.

 

And probably some shunt signals for the right-hand crossover although they could be controlled by the signalman by flag.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

Not quite sure I'm confident enough to start bending slips just yet!

 

A signal bracket is definately a thought although I'd imagine sourcing or making one would be a challenge!

 

I have not checked. But I am sure you would find the necessary components for the bracket signal from MSE (alias 51L, Comet, Wizard....).

[Harlequin]

I also question the left hand crossover. It was suggested earlier in a slightly different context but I think it's superfluous now.

 

I think you do need ground discs controlling the right hand crossover and slip into the goods loop because all the signalling and points would be interlocked.

 

The crossover discs should be in the 6ft.

 

To get truly expert advice it would be best to ask in the PWay and Signalling area.