Van/vehicle identification help please

[iands]

Good afternoon all,

 

I've been looking through a few recent ebay purchases in more detail and wonder if any of the more knowledgeable rolling stock members could help with a vehicle identification please (I'll refer to it as a vehicle for now until it's ID has been confirmed).

The photo is of unrebuilt Royal Scot 46148 The Manchester Regiment on a Down Express at Shap Wells in 1953. I've seen quite a few photos of "vans" in a passenger consist previously, but this one caught my attention as "unusual" (to me at least). The second "van" is, I think, a horse box (nothing unusual in that), but does anyone know what the first vehicle is please? What caught my attention is the tarpaulin. I've not seen a "tarped" van/wagon in a passenger consist before*. Given that the second van might be a horse box (presumably conveying a horse or two), could the first vehicle be used for conveying hay/straw/feed etc., and if so why the tarp? Would such vehicles normally be "open" (thus requiring a tarp), or would it be a "van", but on this occasion (perhaps) have a damaged roof requiring a tarp to protect the contents from the weather? Any suggestions/confirmation would be most welcome.

 

*cue an opportunity for someone to post several other examples!

 

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

[keefer]

Is it a cattle van with a tarp to cover the open panels at the top of the sides? Presumably to keep the worst of the wind/rain out (doesn't look like the weather's very nice)

ISTR vehicles carrying livestock were coupled behind the loco - if they were empty, they could go anywhere in the train

Edited February 1, 2020 by keefer

[Aire Head]

I'm pretty confident that it is a cattle van. In fact I think it is a Ex LMS (Dia1661?) Van.

 

Tarps were frequently used on Vans and containers with leaky roofs.

[iands]

20 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I'm pretty confident that it is a cattle van. In fact I think it is a Ex LMS (Dia1661?) Van.

 

Tarps were frequently used on Vans and containers with leaky roofs.

Were cattle vans allowed to run in passenger consists (given that it is an express)? I acknowledge it is only one cattle van (albeit with a horse box), but were cattle vans "piped" for vacuum (or indeed air) brakes and/or steam heat? If this one was piped for steam heat, it looks like it's very "leaky".

[Caley739]

This could be an example of horses loaded in a cattle truck. I'm sure I've read somewhere that horses are nervous travellers and liable to panic if they can see the passing scenery from a moving vehicle, especially if they are not facing the direction of travel. To prevent this when in a cattle truck the tarp was used to keep them calm rather than to keep the rain out. I wish I could quote a reference for this idea. There was a train in the timetable for many years that left Crewe for Perth about 9.30am that  frequently conveyed horseboxs or special cattle vans as leading vehicles. I think this a photograph of that train.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Caley739
spelling

[Steamport Southport]

Yes. Some cattle wagons were vacuum and steam heating piped. Some were labelled XP.

 

Also no problems with them being in express passenger trains as they were over 10 foot wheelbase.

 

 

 

Jason

[Aire Head]

24 minutes ago, Caley739 said:

This could be an example of horses loaded in a cattle truck. I'm sure I've read somewhere that horses are nervous travellers and liable to panic if they can see the passing scenery from a moving vehicle. To prevent this when in a cattle truck the tarp was used to keep them calm rather than to keep the rain out. I wish I could quote a reference for this idea. There was a train in the timetable for many years that left Crewe for Perth about 9.30am that  frequently conveyed horseboxs or special cattle vans as leading vehicles. I think this a photograph of that train.

 

Horses would frequently travel in cattle wagons. Horse boxes were more for "prize horses" such as race horses and allowed accommodation for staff to travel with them. Of course this is by no means definitive!

 

It's an interesting picture I've particularly noted that the 8th coach is still painted in full crimson rather than "blood and custard"

[doilum]

19 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Horses would frequently travel in cattle wagons. Horse boxes were more for "prize horses" such as race horses and allowed accommodation for staff to travel with them. Of course this is by no means definitive!

 

It's an interesting picture I've particularly noted that the 8th coach is still painted in full crimson rather than "blood and custard"

Must be ponies then. Having spent a couple of hours today working on a horsebox of the 7.5ton variety, I doubt if a cattle wagon had sufficient headroom for anything over 15 hands.

[Aire Head]

Just now, doilum said:

Must be ponies then. Having spent a couple of hours today working on a horsebox of the 7.5ton variety, I doubt if a cattle wagon had sufficient headroom for anything over 15 hands.

 

The one pictured in particular has quite a low roof too!

[hmrspaul]

We aren't told what time of year it is. Instructions required horses and some other livestock when carried in cattle vans to be sheeted during the winter - dates are given. However it is supposed to be lifted in the centre to allow for ventilation.

 

Paul

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Yes. Some cattle wagons were vacuum and steam heating piped. Some were labelled XP.

 

Also no problems with them being in express passenger trains as they were over 10 foot wheelbase.

 

 

 

Jason

And quite a few cattle wagons were equipped with full vacuum brake equipment. 

 

Jim 

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, keefer said:

ISTR vehicles carrying livestock were coupled behind the loco - if they were empty, they could go anywhere in the train

 Empty livestock wagons could go anywhere on a freight train, but in passenger trains the position depended on the marshalling of the train (you wouldn't place one between passenger carrying vehicles and the restaurant car, for example) and not more than the 3rd and 4th axles behind the brake van with the guard riding in it.  

 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Some cattle wagons were vacuum and steam heating piped. Some were labelled XP.

 

Also no problems with them being in express passenger trains as they were over 10 foot wheelbase.

XP, denoting express passenger rated goods vehicle, demanded that the wagon/van be fitted, not just piped through, with vacuum brakes and screw couplings.  A 10'+ wheelbased wagon was able to run at up to 60mph, and if this train is the Crewe-Perth mentioned and booked to carry such traffic, the timings will allow for this.  If OTOH it is an ad hoc out of course working, the driver and guard will note this fact in their daily journals in order to account for the late running.  A freight vehicle running in a passenger train had to be XP rated; this is not the same as a 'mixed' train which can convey unfitted vehicles and needs a goods brake van with a guard with route knowledge riding in it at the rear of the train, authorised on certain routes by the relevant Sectional Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations).  

 

As the wagon is next the loco, we can assume that it has a through heating pipe (some D 1661s were built with these). and is carrying stock for at least a part of the journey.  Perth puts one in mind of Highland cattle, formidable beasts!  Horses have issues with their peripheral vision and can be highly strung, which may account for the tarp and is the reason road trailer horse boxes do not have side windows and some working or race horses have blinkers.  As well as horseboxes which contained a passenger compartment and toilet for the groom, meaning that the beast was of such status and value that it travelled with the groom, there were prize cattle vans (Beetles in GW parlance) with a passenger compartment for the stockman, but the frequent stops required by the regulations for the carriage of cattle meant that he did not require a toilet.  Unlike horse boxes, none of these were built as BR standard vehicles.

 

Note the bits of straw sticking out of the slats in the bottom of the wagon sides and ends.

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/02/2020 at 20:08, hmrspaul said:

We aren't told what time of year it is. Instructions required horses and some other livestock when carried in cattle vans to be sheeted during the winter - dates are given. However it is supposed to be lifted in the centre to allow for ventilation.

 

Paul

The time of year is important because if it is outside the steam heating season then there would be no need for the wagon to have a through steam pipe.

 

As long the vehicle was branded 'XP' it could run in any passenger train which was permitted to convey 4 wheel vehicles although during the 1960s various restrictions of speed were gradiually applied to 4 wheelers which meant that, in effect, on many parts of BR they were no longer permitted to run as tail traffic in Class A/Class 1 passenger trains.