Optimal control of Dapol semaphore signals...any ideas please.

[Edward]

How best to control my 6 Dapol semaphore signals, that is the question!  2 are brackets so a total of 8 little motors.   I've been racking my brains , such as they are for quite a while now as I bought them slowly over the past few months.  (As I could afford 'em)

Some key facts first: DCC system is NCE PowerCab,  there are 15 point motors all Cobalt IP. They include 1 double slip & 2 3-way points.  Luckily they're all on 1 board and I run them through Alpha Switch Ds  & Alpha Encoder Units. 

This very importantly, gives one cable between the boards which I want to stick to if poss. 

Also I really want to control the trains by the signals ( yes I'm sorry I'm one of those! But Rule 1 applies.)  So that probably means manual mini switches. I've even taken advice from the signalling experts on their forum. Therefore only signalling the running lines and goods loop. 

 

Anyway I've sort of teased out some options. 

Power : in spite of some terrifying warnings in Dapol advice sheet, I reckon to use the track bus to supply that? Is that ok? If not its easy to run out from a DC 12v wall plug.

 

A.  I think you can connect the signal control wires to the 3 terminals of the Cobalts. But worried about the non volt warning? The problems I see here would be crossovers & brackets.  The arms would move every time the point motor operated , still it would be a low cost option. Seems complicated wiring and not very protypical.

 

B.  Surely there should be a DCC way?  I looked at the Train Tech & Dapol circuit boards. Obviously specially designed for these signals but the cost makes it out of the question.

 

C. Another route could be the Digikeij DR 4018. Looks to be a bit/very complicated but with 16 channels for <£40 would do 5 signals so a possible.  Exactly how could be a bit of a struggle.  Also would need a switch panel of some kind? Could a simple non DCC switch be suitable?

 

D.  A non-dcc route:  use switches as supplied with the bracket signal , running wires to a separate panel .  Could even fit LEDs using DTDP types and DC power supply.  In this case, could the dcc bus still be used for the signal power? Thinking a bit more , it would  be easy to properly operate the signals this way!

 

Sorry this has been so long but any advice/comments will be great.   It's such an important part of running the railway which if wrong would be a constant headache!

 

 

 

[JohnDMJ]

Simple:

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/model-accessories/motorised-signals/4a-001-001-dcc-signal-controller--1041

 

Designed specifically for the job.

 

Most other routes are, in the long term (but who ever considers that?) more expensive because they damage the signal, so it needs to be replaced!

Edited February 8, 2020 by JohnDMJ

[Edward]

4 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

Simple:

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/model-accessories/motorised-signals/4a-001-001-dcc-signal-controller--1041

 

Designed specifically for the job.

 

Most other routes are, in the long term (but who ever considers that?) more expensive because they damage the signal, so it needs to be replaced!

Thanks very much for that.  I'd sort of considered them as an option but I didn't realise till now that each one does 2 signals.  That makes it more possible from cost wise. I could use Alpha Switches then to control them.

Your second point definitely to be considered!!

[Robert Stokes]

I am controlling mine using DCC Concepts miniature levers in a frame. After all this was the way semaphore signals were controlled in the 1950s era of my layout.

 

Robert

[JohnDMJ]

1 hour ago, Robert Stokes said:

I am controlling mine using DCC Concepts miniature levers in a frame. After all this was the way semaphore signals were controlled in the 1950s era of my layout.

 

Robert

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/shop/model-accessories/motorised-signals/4a-001-001-dcc-signal-controller--1041

 

ensures that you have the CORRECT voltage for the signal. DCC Concepts devices are generic, not specific.

[Robert Stokes]

1 hour ago, JohnDMJ said:

ensures that you have the CORRECT voltage for the signal. DCC Concepts devices are generic, not specific.

 

I don't really understand the relevance of your comment. The DCC Concepts levers are only switches. I have read quite a lot about power for these signals and have a variable DC voltage supply for them. I will start with 6V and increase it only if they don't work at this voltage and use the minimum that works.

 

Robert

[Bob83a]

Dapol 4A-001-001 which  is the same thing as a Train-tech SC3,is only for the single arm signals. As I understand it a short duration linking of the two yellow wires is what is required to change the signal, no power must be supplied by the Accessory decoder. the Dapol decoder is just a rebadged Train-tech device.

 

For the bracket signals (servo) a different accessory decoder is required, Train-tech SC4 - Dapol 4A-001-002
 

As I understand it using the wrong decoder will cause problems

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Bob83a
Added Dapol part no equipment to SC4

[JohnDMJ]

5 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

 

I don't really understand the relevance of your comment. The DCC Concepts levers are only switches. I have read quite a lot about power for these signals and have a variable DC voltage supply for them. I will start with 6V and increase it only if they don't work at this voltage and use the minimum that works.

 

Robert

 

Well, I can let you find out the hard way but it ain't what you use to operate (DCC Concepts levers, for example) but the voltage you put through said levers. Use an off-the-shelf power supply and wonder why your signals don't work any more

[newbryford]

If they are Dapol 00 gauge signals, then they require a simple push to make contact on the yellow wires to operate.

The voltage supplied to the signal is a separate supply.

Dapol did change their original wiring diagrams a couple of years back to "include" use of a DC power supply after repeated failures with AC supply.

Having seen repeated failures on a friend's layout using Dapol's originally specified AC supply, I would now use nothing other than a regulated DC supply if I ever had reason to use Dapol semaphores

 

The control to a Dapol signal can be accomplished bay any SPDT changeover switch - as long as there is a gap in the make/break/make sequence, such as that on a slow acting point motor such as Tortoise or DCC Concepts Cobalt point motor - or the momentary contacts on a Cobalt S-Lever, by connecting the centre terminal to one of the Dapol control wires and the two "outer" terminals of the SPDT to the other control wire.

So on a Cobalt, connect the two yellow control wires - one to S2-C and the other to S2-L & S2-R.

On a S-lever, one yellow wire to momentary common, the other to momentary left AND right,

 

IMO - the way that Dapol use a contact to control their 00 (and N) signals is plain daft. 

The simple SPST on/off of the 0 gauge is much more sensible.

 

 

 

 

[Robert Stokes]

10 hours ago, JohnDMJ said:

 

Well, I can let you find out the hard way but it ain't what you use to operate (DCC Concepts levers, for example) but the voltage you put through said levers. Use an off-the-shelf power supply and wonder why your signals don't work any more

 

I think that you have misunderstood me. I will use the regulated variable voltage DC supply that I have recently got to put power into the signals via the black and red wires. The levers will be connected to the yellow wires via its connectors which give a momentary contact when operated in either direction. I did this on the previous layout with an unregulated 9V supply and the system worked perfectly.

 

Robert

[Edward]

13 hours ago, newbryford said:

If they are Dapol 00 gauge signals, then they require a simple push to make contact on the yellow wires to operate.

The voltage supplied to the signal is a separate supply.

Dapol did change their original wiring diagrams a couple of years back to "include" use of a DC power supply after repeated failures with AC supply.

Having seen repeated failures on a friend's layout using Dapol's originally specified AC supply, I would now use nothing other than a regulated DC supply if I ever had reason to use Dapol semaphores

 

The control to a Dapol signal can be accomplished bay any SPDT changeover switch - as long as there is a gap in the make/break/make sequence, such as that on a slow acting point motor such as Tortoise or DCC Concepts Cobalt point motor - or the momentary contacts on a Cobalt S-Lever, by connecting the centre terminal to one of the Dapol control wires and the two "outer" terminals of the SPDT to the other control wire.

So on a Cobalt, connect the two yellow control wires - one to S2-C and the other to S2-L & S2-R.

On a S-lever, one yellow wire to momentary common, the other to momentary left AND right,

 

IMO - the way that Dapol use a contact to control their 00 (and N) signals is plain daft. 

The simple SPST on/off of the 0 gauge is much more sensible.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this.. purely for operational reasons I have now decided not to use the running off Cobalt route .  I can't/couldn't work out how to wire them in crossovers or let alone double slips!  I wanted to be able to first set the route and then invite the train to depart by pulling off a signal.

So going for the TrainTech controller way (but see below over problems: ordering the wrong one!

[Edward]

19 hours ago, Bob83a said:

Dapol 4A-001-001 which  is the same thing as a Train-tech SC3,is only for the single arm signals. As I understand it a short duration linking of the two yellow wires is what is required to change the signal, no power must be supplied by the Accessory decoder. the Dapol decoder is just a rebadged Train-tech device.

 

For the bracket signals (servo) a different accessory decoder is required, Train-tech SC4 - Dapol 4A-001-002
 

As I understand it using the wrong decoder will cause problems

 

 

Oh dear having read this I think I've ordered the wrong ones.  I've got 2 bracket signals and 4 single post ones but have ordered 4 of the SC3.   Two of the controllers MUST be the SC4.  I also ,now, just read the 2 "manuals". Yes a definite own goal but hopefully can get it changed tomorrow.

[Edward]

22 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

I am controlling mine using DCC Concepts miniature levers in a frame. After all this was the way semaphore signals were controlled in the 1950s era of my layout.

 

Robert

Agree really the best way to go!  I've gone down the Alpha Switches D route so far .  But where does the output go from the levers or do they generate the DCC impulse themselves?

[Robert Stokes]

11 minutes ago, Edward said:

But where does the output go from the levers?

 

See my answer about four above this one.

 

Robert