Kirby couplings vs Kadee couplings

[Tony Davis]

I'm at the point of fixing magnets to my Inglenook layout and have reached a sort of crossroads. I had intended to fit kadee couplings, and use two magnets as per Shortliner's post many moons ago. I am now thinking that maybe the Brian Kirby stapler uncoupler may be a cheaper and easier mod, but wanted to garner some (hopefully informed) opinions before commiting magnet(s) to layout.

 

Has anybody fitted and kadee's and wished they hadn't? Has anybody fitted Kirby couplings and wished they had fitted kadee's?

 

The other option I am considering is greenwich couplings, which would also be actioned by fixed magnet.

 

Thanks

 

Tony

 

 

[johnb]

I got into Kadees when I started US prototype modelling and liked them. I also model UK prototype, so I did some experimental fitting to UK stock. A fair amount of that was prior to the near universal fitting of NEM pockets on UK rtr models. I used them on a small UK layout which went on to do several years on the exhibition circuit. A layout which involved a fair degree of shunting. My current layout has carried on with them and I am happy with them. I did use permanent magnets at first, but tended to prefer manual methods. 

Using  Kadee fixed magnets is OK, but they didn't really suit me.They do enable nice propelling moves, but if the loco hesitates or the stock runs too freely, they couple up again just where you don't want that to happen.

I tried out the Kadee manual uncoupler which has two magnets either side of a sort of stirrup arrangement but couldn't get on with it. I now use a pointed kebab skewer to twiddle them open.

 

I stress that the above is what suits me but maybe not for everyone.

 

John

[Tony Davis]

3 minutes ago, johnb said:

I tried out the Kadee manual uncoupler which has two magnets either side of a sort of stirrup arrangement but couldn't get on with it. I now use a pointed kebab skewer to twiddle them open.

 

I stress that the above is what suits me but maybe not for everyone.

 

John

That may well prove to be the answer I am looking for, John, as it would obviate the need to fit magnets at all, and give me control over where I can uncouple the wagons. I do have a Kadee uncoupler, but it has no magnets, it is a yellow stick with a pointy bit on one end. It came as part of a job lot of Kadee's that I got from eBay.

[johnb]

Ah! I'd forgotten about the yellow pointy thing. The kebab stick is the same idea, but is much longer of course which I like. Also the slight roughness is an advantage as it grips better.

[Tony Davis]

5 minutes ago, johnb said:

Ah! I'd forgotten about the yellow pointy thing. The kebab stick is the same idea, but is much longer of course which I like. Also the slight roughness is an advantage as it grips better.

One thing I found when using the pointy thing was that the wagon's tended to tip up when poked with said pointy thing, which could lead to de-railing. Maybe I was being too heavy handed. I will get a kebab stick and have a poke about with that, it could be that as the yellow pointy thing is quite short, being bent over the layout leads me to put too much weight on the pointy thing.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I use both, Kadee on passenger stock formation ends; modified position Bachmann miniature tension lock (with the BK mod selectively applied) on freight stock (late BR steam period).

 

The Kadee offers the well known excellent performance, and looks like the knuckle coupler that was standard on GNR, LNER and BR gangwayed stock.

 

The messed about with tension locks likewise perform well, permitting a full loose coupled effect, wagons buffer up when propelled, open out to scale distance between bufferheads when hauled, which is pleasing. The BK mod enables autouncoupling on the Kadee magnets, electro and permanent.

 

Both offer benefits, horses for courses.

[Butler Henderson]

Another solution to the magnet issue is to put the magnet on a hinged cut out worked by a solenoid, or other mechanism as appropriate.

[johnb]

Re derailing have you weighted the wagons? Some UK stock is pretty light. I weighted mine, but not to the NMRA standard. I did some experimenting and have settled on 25g per axle so a two axle wagon is of the order of 50g and bogie stock 100g, that gives an amount of 'heft'. I do not do that precisely but near enough is good enough.

 

I've not had any issues with tipping, but it doesn't need much push to get the uncoupler down between the couplers. I rest the stick at the right location and twiddle gently and it slips between the faces and couplers open, it does not need much of a push.

[Tony Davis]

No, but, we had the flashing on the conservatory repaired recently and I kept the old flashing so I shall get that sorted out, thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

[Tony Davis]

34 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The BK mod enables autouncoupling on the Kadee magnets, electro and permanent.

 

Both offer benefits, horses for courses.

I'm guessing that would involve the use of a wide magnet? I have mocked up a trial piece of track, Shortliner kindly supplied some photo's of how he had used neodymium magnets spaced apart to facilitate the Kadee's pulling in opposite directions, but I had to put a magnet in the centre of the track to operate the Kirby couplers.

[Guest WM183]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

 

The messed about with tension locks likewise perform well, permitting a full loose coupled effect, wagons buffer up when propelled, open out to scale distance between bufferheads when hauled, which is pleasing. The BK mod enables autouncoupling on the Kadee magnets, electro and permanent.

 

Both offer benefits, horses for courses.

 

May I ask how the tension locks you speak of are modified? I'm quite curious about them.

[Dungrange]

49 minutes ago, WM183 said:

 

May I ask how the tension locks you speak of are modified? I'm quite curious about them.

 

If you search for "Brian Kirby couplings", you should get various threads about the modifications that Brian Kirby proposed - effectively extending the bottom part of the coupling with a piece of metal, so that it is attracted to a magnet. 

[BR60103]

I get to use the skewer monthly. I find it easier to pull on the droppers than to twiddle between the knuckles. Especally on corridor coaches.

 

There used to be an "h" shaped uncoupler with 2 magnets on the lower legs. I found that it tended to grab any metal details on the wagon ends -- ladders on American boxcars.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

11 hours ago, Tony Davis said:

I'm guessing that would involve the use of a wide magnet?

What I have used are the Kadee products, which are 'wide'. Alternative magnets will require experiment by the user, I cannot offer any experience: other than some ancient magnet strip salvaged from a long forgotten office product which will not work the Kadees but will work the BK fitted couplers.

 

10 hours ago, WM183 said:

May I ask how the tension locks you speak of are modified?

There's a quite separate modification apart from the Brian Kirby magnetic uncoupling mod, which is 'standard' with what is described in plenty of other locations. Only the Bachmann coupler is used, past experiment having determined that operational reliability was only obtained by standardising on one manufacturer's pattern of miniature tension lock. (Happily the coupler picked for standardisation on the layout was one to which the BK mod was applicable. Which was nice.)

 

What I wanted to eliminate were the large gaps between steam era four wheel short wheelbase wagons caused by the regular coupler positioning, which allows coupling and uncoupling on the smallest current set track curve. For wagons up to 12' wheelbase the mounting is altered to place the 'bumper bar' face in the same plane as the bufferhead faces. The wagons will then buffer up, and when pulled the Bachmann hook allows about 2mm between the bufferheads, just right for loose coupled. The bumper bar positively prevents buffer locking on smaller radius curves.

 

What I usually do to achieve this on Bachmann's RTR OO wagons is crop the coupler pockets and the locator on the coupler, and reassemble. (The few RTR wagons from other makers have Bachmann's couplers substituted, same mod.)

Screwed on Bachmann couplers are moved backwards, by a new screwhole made in the coupler, kit built wagons usually have the pocket mount moved inboard, awkward wagons like lowmacs usually end up with a coupler glued in without benefit of pocket. None of it pretty or very exact!

 

A minimum radius of 24" is 'on the limit' with the couplers so arranged. Uncoupling is not possible on curves as the hooks are latched with no slack available. Longer wagons, bogie stock, by experiment to get them as close as possible.

 

 

[Il Grifone]

Is the "yellow pointy thing" the tool that also serves for the fiddly job* of replacing those wretched knuckle springs?

 

* I lost two of these the other day through not following my own advice about doing the job inside a box!

 

Having track magnets where you usually need to uncouple doesn't preclude using some sort of probe elsewhere.

The prototype has problems with knuckle couplings on short wheelbase stock. That doesn't overrule my intense dislike of any kind of tangle tension lock!

 

My preferences are Kadee for U.S. stock and the Peco/HD for British (3-link/screw for EM, but I haven't the space for the large radii required at present). Continental stock still makes do with the loop coupling (there are several versions of this...).

Edited March 9, 2020 by Il Grifone

[johnb]

If I recall correctly the yellow pointy thing does not do the knuckle springs. I've got and have had for years a maroon plastic handle which has a steel rod emerging which has the end flattened to hold a spring, I think it was called a 'spring pic', it works  ... er ... most of the time!

[Il Grifone]

24 minutes ago, johnb said:

If I recall correctly the yellow pointy thing does not do the knuckle springs. I've got and have had for years a maroon plastic handle which has a steel rod emerging which has the end flattened to hold a spring, I think it was called a 'spring pic', it works  ... er ... most of the time!

 

Rather as I thought. I use the point of an Swann-Morten Knife blade. That works most of the time too!

(See my post above!).

[Gordon A]

17 hours ago, Tony Davis said:

I'm at the point of fixing magnets to my Inglenook layout and have reached a sort of crossroads. I had intended to fit kadee couplings, and use two magnets as per Shortliner's post many moons ago. I am now thinking that maybe the Brian Kirby stapler uncoupler may be a cheaper and easier mod, but wanted to garner some (hopefully informed) opinions before commiting magnet(s) to layout.

 

Has anybody fitted and kadee's and wished they hadn't? Has anybody fitted Kirby couplings and wished they had fitted kadee's?

 

The other option I am considering is greenwich couplings, which would also be actioned by fixed magnet.

 

Thanks

 

Tony

 

 

 

What are Greenwich couplings and Kirby couplings?

it would be nice to know what you are talking about.

 

Pictures or links would be useful.

 

Gordon A

[TheQ]

https://gdngrs.com/couplings

My favourite is.. http://www.dingham.co.uk/

 

[davknigh]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

https://gdngrs.com/couplings

My favourite is.. http://www.dingham.co.uk/

 

Dinghams for me too. They go where couplings belong, in the buffer beam, and when properly tuned work a treat. They have their limits TBH but the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[checkrail]

1 hour ago, davknigh said:

  3 hours ago, TheQ said:

https://gdngrs.com/couplings

My favourite is.. http://www.dingham.co.uk/

 

 

I've only just been alerted to this topic, and seen references to the 'Brian Kirby uncoupling - problems' thread I started in 2015.  I wouldn't want anyone to be put off by the word 'problems' in the thread title.  By the time the final contribution to the discussion had been posted they'd been very largely overcome, and I still use the system with success.

 

The only slight change I've made since is to couple some goods wagons in pairs with BK couplings on outer ends only, greatly minimising any residual tendency for wagons to spontaneously re-couple.  And of course they don't have to stay in the same pairs.  I'm in good company here, as the estimable Iain Rice used to assemble wagons in 'cuts' with his own 'imprecise' coupler (not dissimilar to the S & W) at the outer ends and 3-links in between.

 

I agree that Dinghams would probably be superior, but I'm afraid I wasn't skilful enough to assemble them to a satisfactory non-binding standard.

 

Like at least one other contributor to this new discussion I'd love to know what 'Greenwich' couplings are.  (Google here we come.)

 

John C.

[Guest WM183]

7 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

What I have used are the Kadee products, which are 'wide'. Alternative magnets will require experiment by the user, I cannot offer any experience: other than some ancient magnet strip salvaged from a long forgotten office product which will not work the Kadees but will work the BK fitted couplers.

 

There's a quite separate modification apart from the Brian Kirby magnetic uncoupling mod, which is 'standard' with what is described in plenty of other locations. Only the Bachmann coupler is used, past experiment having determined that operational reliability was only obtained by standardising on one manufacturer's pattern of miniature tension lock. (Happily the coupler picked for standardisation on the layout was one to which the BK mod was applicable. Which was nice.)

 

What I wanted to eliminate were the large gaps between steam era four wheel short wheelbase wagons caused by the regular coupler positioning, which allows coupling and uncoupling on the smallest current set track curve. For wagons up to 12' wheelbase the mounting is altered to place the 'bumper bar' face in the same plane as the bufferhead faces. The wagons will then buffer up, and when pulled the Bachmann hook allows about 2mm between the bufferheads, just right for loose coupled. The bumper bar positively prevents buffer locking on smaller radius curves.

 

What I usually do to achieve this on Bachmann's RTR OO wagons is crop the coupler pockets and the locator on the coupler, and reassemble. (The few RTR wagons from other makers have Bachmann's couplers substituted, same mod.)

Screwed on Bachmann couplers are moved backwards, by a new screwhole made in the coupler, kit built wagons usually have the pocket mount moved inboard, awkward wagons like lowmacs usually end up with a coupler glued in without benefit of pocket. None of it pretty or very exact!

 

A minimum radius of 24" is 'on the limit' with the couplers so arranged. Uncoupling is not possible on curves as the hooks are latched with no slack available. Longer wagons, bogie stock, by experiment to get them as close as possible.

 

 

 

Thank you! This sounds like a good idea!

[Tony Davis]

7 hours ago, Gordon A said:

 

What are Greenwich couplings and Kirby couplings?

it would be nice to know what you are talking about.

 

Pictures or links would be useful.

 

Gordon A

Greenwich Couplings; https://gdngrs.com/couplings

Brian Kirby:  Basically a staple attached to a tension lock hook in such a way that, when passed over a magnet placed in the ballast, will cause the tension lock hook to rise and thus uncouple. I couldn't find a direct link but a quick search using your search engine of choice will show many examples of how they work. Come to think of it, just typing it in the search box on this site will bring up many examples.

[Tony Davis]

3 hours ago, checkrail said:

 

I agree that Dinghams would probably be superior, but I'm afraid I wasn't skilful enough to assemble them to a satisfactory non-binding standard.

No, I struggled the first time I tried to use them, and I chucked the fret in a drawer. Since reading this comment I have dug them out again and will test fitting them to some old wagons.

I also bought some electromagnets at the same time but couldn't work out how to wire them up, maybe I'll give those a another shot too.

[ColinK]

For tension locks if you glue a staple on the hook you can use a fridge magnet on a stick to uncouple the wagons. That’s the method I use on my narrow gauge magnet.

 

My 00 layout has kadees; I use the magnets and find them OK.  I have no success with the ‘yellow stick’, but one of the little brushes you use to clean between your teeth works well.