Midlands Coal & Freight, Late 1980's - N Gauge

[Ted-ish]

Hi folks,

 

I wanted to start a thread to share my plans, progress and thoughts on my new loft layout.

 

It will run through Shirebrook (big nod of inspiration goes to Duncan for his Shirebrook layout on here).

 

Freight loads supply/demand:

 

 

Locations (on/off scene) for supply and delivery:
 

• Oxcroft Coal Disposal Point
• Long Eaton Oil distribution depot
• Knottingley or Worksop Glassworks
• Stanton Ironworks
• Cement Terminal at Beeston
• Scrapyard
• WH Davis
• Mansfield Sand
• Charringtons Fuel Terminal
• Ironbridge Power Station

 

However, due to the Covid19 I'm not able to have the loft kitted out by the carpenter just yet. The Velux and insulation panels are on hold until we're safe to let people in the house.

 

Therefore, I'm building models and components for the layout, ready to go up.

 

It will be a 2 x 5ft open board, modular design on DCC. Totalling an approximate space of 10 x 14 x 10ft.

 

I started collecting N Gauge locos and paraphernalia 18 months back. I am a novice by most standards, so please do provide your feedback where appropriate.

 

---

I will update this first post with layout diagrams as I go.

---

 

An overview of the space I'm working with:

 

I have a detached house with hipped roof on all sides. This means the loft space headroom is reduce by 8-10ft each side. Denoted by the hard grey lines on the drawing.

 

There's a bloody great big triple chimney stack off-centre too - but that has to stay! ;-) I've estimated 14ft (1ft per grid square).

 

I'm very tempted to use helices to run trains under the layout to staging/storage areas. This is a an A to B to C layout, not a big loop. A helix allows me to run a train off scene and then back from the same place again later on. The storage yards could even be loops of 8-10ft themselves.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Ted-ish

[Ted-ish]

Some images of the modified Midlands signal box I've been working on - a bit of kit bashing as you'll see, it's reduced down a third in size from the original with alterations to glazing, roof and walkways.

It needs weathering and some final details, but nearly done:

 

 

[Duncan.]

Great start Ed, keep up the work... oh fancy doing a second to replace my Shirebrook station box? Can we have a trak plan please.

Cheers

Duncan

[Steadfast]

Lovely work on the signalbox, look forward to keeping an eye on more updates!

 

Jo

[Ted-ish]

5 hours ago, Duncan. said:

Great start Ed, keep up the work... oh fancy doing a second to replace my Shirebrook station box? Can we have a trak plan please.

Cheers

Duncan

 

Swearing, sweating, tears... I went through it all to get that one built. I think I'll pass, for now!

 

Track plan is in the works. I'm starting from one corner to the other and will explain my thought process, hopefully for you wiser hands to pick apart and explain where I might come a cropper.

 

3 hours ago, Steadfast said:

Lovely work on the signalbox, look forward to keeping an eye on more updates!

 

Jo

 

Thank you Jo, appreciate it.

[Ted-ish]

Okay, so here's the first step - working out the space. I do have drawings of the layout, but this is painting a picture.

 

I have a sizeable detached house, however it's hipped roof on all sides which means the loft space headroom is reduce by 8-10ft each side. Denoted by the hard grey lines on the drawing.

 

Until it's fully boarded up there, it will be hard to say precisely how much room I have - but I've estimated 14ft (1ft per grid square).

 

I'm very tempted to use helices to run trains under the layout to staging/storage areas. This is a an A to B to C layout, not a big loop. A helix allows me to run a train off scene and then back from the same place again later on. The storage yards could even be loops of 8-10ft themselves.

 

 

Any pertinent information such as this I'll update the very first post with, so in time, there's an overview/reference to the entire topic which will grow.

[Duncan.]

Hi Ed,

Can I suggest you do a dry run with a helix before committing to it. The rolling resistance of a wagon increases with  a decreasing radius, (long wheel base vehicles without bogies are the worst), add the gradient to this and you will soon establish the longest train you can run without overloading your loco- I use an ammeter to see what current is being drawn. If you cannot run a train of intended length up the helix you may need to rethink. On Shirebrook the curve through the spoil heaps is around 110cm radius (3ft 6in in old money), if I run a weaker loco on a lengthy train it can almost grind to a halt, while it was running at a scale 40mph on the 'straight' through the station and past the depot, it is sometimes possible to wind up the throttle to the max to get the train home but this isn't great for the motor, my relatively gentle curve is on the flat of course!

Cheers

Duncan

[Ted-ish]

14 hours ago, Duncan. said:

Can I suggest you do a dry run with a helix before committing to it.

 

Yes! I've ordered a few loops to test with 2nd and 3rd degree bends. Down would be 2nd and coming up the helix would be 3rd.

 

I think the smallest loco I have that would be prototypical is a Class 25, so that's going to be first up the loop. The Class 20's are smaller but will probably double-head.

[Ted-ish]

Today I've been building a helix. I'll be testing going 'up' on 3rd degree tomorrow.

 

Don't judge my woodworking, this isn't scenic.

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Ted-ish

[Ted-ish]

 

Just testing my first loops of the helix.

 

Stopping and starting on the gradient with 11 pieces of stock and my trusty Class 25.

 

• 3rd degree radius Peco set-track (for testing)
• Not cleaned, straight out of the box - 1 power connection
• Gap between levels is 50mm
• Clearance is at least 15mm, so plenty of room

As a result, could lower the gap to 45mm to soften the gradient some more to be safe.

 

It does however show the small BoBo loco having no issues whatsoever on a 2.5% gradient with 11 wagons. Next,

 

I'll do 24 wagons...

[Duncan.]

46 minutes ago, Ted-ish said:

 

Just testing my first loops of the helix.

 

Stopping and starting on the gradient with 11 pieces of stock and my trusty Class 25.

 

• 3rd degree radius Peco set-track (for testing)
• Not cleaned, straight out of the box - 1 power connection
• Gap between levels is 50mm
• Clearance is at least 15mm, so plenty of room

As a result, could lower the gap to 45mm to soften the gradient some more to be safe.

 

It does however show the small BoBo loco having no issues whatsoever on a 2.5% gradient with 11 wagons. Next,

 

I'll do 24 wagons...

I'll look forward to that. I had the perfect summer job back in the 1970s. I worked on a model of the St Gotthard line in HO. The locos were a mixture of Fleischmann and Minitrix. The model was 75 ft long and the rail lines gained a height of about 6ft on a circuit of the system. I think there wer 7 spirals all hidden within the mountains. The spirals were flat sided ovals and the largest 3 adults could stand within the loops. I'm not sure now but perhaps the 180 degree turns may have been level with the rise on the flats.

The layout was fully automated, the colour light signals all functioned and when red an approaching train automatically slowed to stop by the signal, when it cleared, (ie the train ahead cleared the section ahead the stopped train would slowly acclerate away. The layout was fully scenically finished and there were maybe 6000 plus conifer trees on the model. 

Cheers

Duncan

[Ted-ish]

 

2 hours ago, Duncan. said:

I'll look forward to that. I had the perfect summer job back in the 1970s. I worked on a model of the St Gotthard line in HO. The locos were a mixture of Fleischmann and Minitrix. The model was 75 ft long and the rail lines gained a height of about 6ft on a circuit of the system. I think there wer 7 spirals all hidden within the mountains. The spirals were flat sided ovals and the largest 3 adults could stand within the loops. I'm not sure now but perhaps the 180 degree turns may have been level with the rise on the flats.

The layout was fully automated, the colour light signals all functioned and when red an approaching train automatically slowed to stop by the signal, when it cleared, (ie the train ahead cleared the section ahead the stopped train would slowly acclerate away. The layout was fully scenically finished and there were maybe 6000 plus conifer trees on the model. 

Cheers

Duncan

 

Thanks Duncan, I ended up cutting the video - I needed more than one hand to operate this time!

 

What I found is that at around 18 wagons the covhops would randomly decouple. Up to 15 was absolutely fine, then 18+ is a gamble. A runaway train is not what I want, especially if it happens at the top of the loop... !

 

I tried a CL37 and that did the same.

 

So, I need to either reduce the height between levels down from 50 to 45mm, or even less, or consider what you've suggested. I have the space and really like the idea of gradient on the straights, curves running flat - or at least a very mild (1% perhaps) gradient. This would ensure I could run 25 wagons without a worry.

 

I'm ordering some plastic pipe that I will cut to lengths of 41, 43 and 45mm to test again. I know at 41mm the clearance will mean I can't easily get my hand in to right any derailments. However, good track laying and clean gradients will reduce the risk of derailments (I didn't experience any whilst testing at various speeds).

[Ted-ish]

This is my idea for the right hand lower corner of the layout. Based on "Northenden Cement Terminal" which isn't in the area, however I really like the simplicity and odd(?) setup, in that shunting appeared to happen on the main line? I prefer it to Beeston which is 'up the road' from the area.

 

 

Notes:

• It would make for an 8foot section of mainly scenic.
• The cement terminal would have capacity for 24x preflos on each siding.
• A modest opposing gradient would add a little interest i.e. not flat.
• Plenty of opportunity for industry in front of the line.
• A bridge either end.

 

I'm wondering if this is a good use of space.

 

Also, it makes for an unusual scenic as the bulk of the operation will be in the foreground in front the running lines.

 

Any issues in doing that?

 

edit: here's the present day arrangement -

Edited April 27, 2020 by Ted-ish

[Ted-ish]

Further measurement and inspection of the loft (with some better lighting) has shown I can't go behind the chimney. There are also some obstructions structurally, so I've decided to cap the width at 12ft.

 

This means compromise for now, however I've made the layout flexible.

1. The important area is two 4x2ft boards.
2. I will then add a fillet board on the left side, this can be scenic but is also 'less vital' in a future move.
3. On the right side I'm thinking a 3ft board, which can easily be extended to 4ft when I move in the future.
4. That shoots off to the cement works and another helix.
5. Note the tip of the TMD actually reaches across the second board, but I've kept it to scale and this should be okay (slot in place)?

This gives me a decent running area, with two yards fed from the helices. Trains can't loop, they have to reach a destination and return.

 

Any feedback would be brilliant, I am a novice at this!

 

 

 

[Ted-ish]

Revised Shirebrook station and shed layout.

 

 

I've refined the track to as close to prototype as I can get, to scale. So I've removed the down line headshunt near the station, one less point to worry about.

 

Again, the top left double-track will roll off behind trees/landscape to a hidden siding. That siding could be considered storage and/or a destination (the train will come back later).

 

I'm much happier with this now.

[Ted-ish]

Sorry if this is boring, but I find it exciting.

 

Printed to scale, a 58 and the signal box in position for reference.

 

Timber will be ordered from my local merchant tomorrow.

[Duncan.]

Saves me having to look out my old photos when I was at this stage!

Cheers

Duncan

[Ted-ish]

13 hours ago, Duncan. said:

Saves me having to look out my old photos when I was at this stage!

Cheers

Duncan

 

An overwhelming sense of deja vue!

 

As soon as I get the wood, I've given myself a month to construct and get the track laid. I think I can turn it out relatively quickly, the scenery on the other hand - we'll see!

 

I am tempted to build two 5x2ft main boards instead of 4x2ft, I'd get the whole bridge to viaduct (start) on those. I think 5ft is still a safe size to manhandle?

 

edit: although I don't think I'll be able to squeeze a viaduct in on this section, I might have to move that around the corner - not true to prototype, but if I'm careful in the future, I could remove the end fillet and connect the viaduct section in parallel to the back section (thinking of a future space/house).

Edited May 2, 2020 by Ted-ish

[Ted-ish]

Okay, so the helix is a bust for my requirements.

It works fine with up to 15 wagons, even up to a 3% gradient.

The locomotives (diesel BoBo and CoCo) are more than capable of pulling, stopping and starting on a 3% with up to 20 wagons.

However, the resistance on the couplings at 17-18+ just creates random uncoupling events - going UP the helix. Down is not an issue.

This is what testing is for.

I will now (pending getting some more MDF) go from 3rd to 4th radius, dropping from a 6mm to 3 or 4mm MDF. Those few mm give me a comfortable 2.1% gradient, but with an more open - lower friction - curve.

For ref, here are my helix calculations:

 

[03060]

Just for quick reference - the difference between 2% and 4%  inclines using the Woodland Scenics system (apologies for the poor photo.)

[Duncan.]

Hi Ed,

Just a thought for your couplings on the uphill grade. You could add a little superglue into the coupling box to 'lock' the coupling horizontal. If you will be shunting each wagon it's a no no but I suspect you won't be. Where you have to leave the coupling free to lift you could replace or adjust spring to give a higher tension and more resistance to lifting?

Cheers

Duncan

[MrSimon]

Hi,

I used the liquid glazing stuff for fixing couplings level (Micro Kristal Klear) it holds the coupling firmly but can be unstuck and cleaned off with water - can’t remember the last time I used it to glaze an actual window!

Cheers

Simon

 

[Ted-ish]

2 hours ago, 03060 said:

Just for quick reference - the difference between 2% and 4%  inclines using the Woodland Scenics system (apologies for the poor photo.)

 

That's a good comparison shot.

 

4% is quite the gradient isn't it.

 

2% looks like child's play in comparison!

[Ted-ish]

1 hour ago, Duncan. said:

Hi Ed,

Just a thought for your couplings on the uphill grade. You could add a little superglue into the coupling box to 'lock' the coupling horizontal. If you will be shunting each wagon it's a no no but I suspect you won't be. Where you have to leave the coupling free to lift you could replace or adjust spring to give a higher tension and more resistance to lifting?

Cheers

Duncan

 

20 minutes ago, MrSimon said:

Hi,

I used the liquid glazing stuff for fixing couplings level (Micro Kristal Klear) it holds the coupling firmly but can be unstuck and cleaned off with water - can’t remember the last time I used it to glaze an actual window!

Cheers

Simon

 

 

Thanks chaps.

 

I have some Mirco glaze Klear to hand actually, but.... I do actually want to be able to shunt.

 

I know, what a paiN!

 

The plan was to have electro magnets. Also, if you make the couplings fixed the weakest point becomes the coupling at the loco end, unless you guys fix that one too?

 

All being said, I'm pretty confident a 4th degree at 2% will eradicate the problem. I'm not a betting man - but If I were...

 

*famous last words

[Ted-ish]

I had a happy accident, Bob Ross style.

 

Applied a varnish, ran some MIG weathering fluid over it and... woah, way too dark. Especially on such a small model.

 

I did remove loads of it with thinner, but it looked grubby and 'over-scale'.

 

After observing the prototype, I decided instead to use the mess as a pre-shade layer. I blew another slightly lighter layer of signal box colour over the top. I say 'signal box' colour, it's actually approx 70% mid-grey, 9% white and 1% mustard yellow.