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Modellers from Kent, Sussex, Surrey and South of the Thames

Peter Lord

Freelance terminus inspired by the railways of South Hampshire.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Without knowing the detailed geometry of all the points, yes, it should.

 

I rather like the one platform arrangement that I sketched, because it fits with the ‘never busy’ nature of a lot of these lines, and creates vast amounts of shuffling about to achieve a sparse service.

Yes, and it is tempting! I am just struggling to shake this image of a terrier and some three-wheelers sitting in the bay while an 02 comes and goes with its own short train...

You have put your finger on the key problem with my whole project: I want to model somewhere that is clearly very quiet and has limited services but I also want more than one train on the layout at the same time. I admit my hypocrisy. 

Edited by Peter Lord
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I don’t accuse you of hypocrisy: any railway modeller who doesn’t have plans bigger than their space is lacking in imagination.

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Is a connection between the lines essential? You could always forego that completely and imagine something like Barnstaple Town as a terminus. It wouldn't need to be a narrow gauge railway either, could just be a Col Stephens style light railway (though that would probably interchange wagons). If operations were entirely independent of one another then that would justify two locos moving at once, and you could run pretty much anything you like on a light railway so long as it's worn out and shonky.

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Posted (edited)
On 26/05/2020 at 23:03, Peter Lord said:

Thank you both. I have never heard of Mutton layouts but will do some research.

It sometimes helps if a link is added to posts which make suggestions.

 

Rob Gunstone's  Sheep layouts, of which Mutton is one, can be found here:

 

Might I suggest that this thread is moved into either layout planning or the layout thread areas, as it is most unusual sitting in sitting in the area group zone, and might not get the wider exposure it deserves. 

 

 

 

Edited by Happy Hippo
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1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Is a connection between the lines essential? You could always forego that completely and imagine something like Barnstaple Town as a terminus. It wouldn't need to be a narrow gauge railway either, could just be a Col Stephens style light railway (though that would probably interchange wagons). If operations were entirely independent of one another then that would justify two locos moving at once, and you could run pretty much anything you like on a light railway so long as it's worn out and shonky.

 

The branch side of Chard Junction perhaps

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Clevedon - Col Stephens terminus right alongside GWR terminus. There's even a connection between them for wagon exchange.

 

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2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

It sometimes helps if a link is added to posts which make suggestions.

 

Rob Gunstone's  Sheep layouts, of which Mutton is one, can be found here:

 

Might I suggest that this thread is moved into either layout planning or the layout thread areas, as it is most unusual sitting in sitting in the area group zone, and might not get the wider exposure it deserves. 

 

 

 

 

 

I thank you. 

 

Might be worth starting from most recent posts and working back.......

 

 

Rob. 

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Posted (edited)

A cheat might be to imagine the connection to be off stage beyond a bridge. There is at least one such British prototype, Keighley, where the connection is on the Skipton side of the over-bridge that has the station buildings etc., on it.

 

Equally using Keighley the GNR goods depot was at a lower level than the passenger branch. My memory is that the goods link ran uphill to a junction with the higher level passenger lines into the station (MR's Oxenhope branch & GNR's Queensbury line) which was the other side of another bridge.

 

Edited by john new
Spelling & to make better sense.
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Thank you all for your continued ideas. I have added Nearholmer's suggestion of a second three-way point to create a short siding. Does anybody have experience of how well terriers - with their tiny wheelbases cope over three-way points.

Here is the amended sketch. Not to scale. I should  re-draw it so the s-bends aren't quite so sharp...

20200528_135340.jpg

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure if you said you were going to use Code 75 but Code 75 3-way points are asymmetric.

You really need to draw it to scale to see if it will actually fit and give the required clearances.

And I hope you don't mind me saying this but it's a bit dull with all the tracks parallel to the board edges and each other. The (sub)branch line would be more clear if it had a different alignment to the main line and it would be great fun if the platform was an odd shape.

Edit: What is the new kickback siding for?

 

Edited by Harlequin
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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I'm not sure if you said you were going to use Code 75 but Code 75 3-way points are asymmetric.

You really need to draw it to scale to see if it will actually fit and give the required clearances.

And I hope you don't mind me saying this but it's a bit dull with all the tracks parallel to the board edges and each other. The (sub)branch line would be more clear if it had a different alignment to the main line and it would be great fun if the platform was an odd shape.

Edit: What is the new kickback siding for?

 

I am planning to use code 100 Peco because I already have a bit in the cupboard and because older models with deeper flanges can cope with it. I would have to buy the three-way points however as I have never owned any. The drawing is not to scale but the locations of points left to right are in their scale positions. You are correct however and I will do a proper scale drawing later.

The tracks will not end up completely parallel; I was just testing the ideas. A likely outcome is probably the primary branch diverging towards the top right of my sketch and the secondary branch diverging bottom right.

Edited by Peter Lord

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Further thoughts on the justification for the two branches: 

 

Trains could use this station to reverse (plenty of prototypes for that) and due to geographical constraints the junction is within the station limits. Due to asymmetrical demand, trains from one branch also terminate at the station before returning on their original route. This could be the push/pull train. As it is a seaside terminus, the busier summer holiday traffic justifies the two platform faces. This would require a re-drawing of my sketch so that the connection between the two branches is flipped; the secondary line having access to the primary platforms rather than the other way around. Any thoughts? 

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6 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

It sometimes helps if a link is added to posts which make suggestions.

Hi again,

 

A link, with apology for not having done so originally, was added in 17 hours before Happy Hippo's comment.

 

Agree that this would be better seen in the layout planning area.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

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18 hours ago, Peter Lord said:

Thank you all for your continued ideas. I have added Nearholmer's suggestion of a second three-way point to create a short siding. Does anybody have experience of how well terriers - with their tiny wheelbases cope over three-way points.

Here is the amended sketch. Not to scale. I should  re-draw it so the s-bends aren't quite so sharp...

20200528_135340.jpg

Here's that in Anyrail to some kind of scale. Obviously there's scope to make the platform a bit longer if you like/ need.

 

PL01.png.8dbb3360bcbf1177a3b5a6842903136a.png

 

Nice and wonky because that's more interesting to look at...

 

Haven't yet thought of a way to get your asymmetric demand terminus in without it being a total cliche. But that's what lunch breaks are for... 

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So I had a bit of a think about what you could do to accommodate a quieter branch line without it being a total "autotrain to the bay" cliche.

 

I came up with ripping off Ventnor from memory:

127536646_PL02Ventnor.png.42f0cd16b566038d45caf573676470eb.png

Getting freight to/ from the branch would be awkward, but it would happen once a day maximum, so shouldn't be too catastrophic amongst what would probably be a 4 or 5 trains a day service. Platforms aren't that long, but when you've only got 6'6" to work with they never will be - trains can only be 2, maybe 3 bogie vehicles. No idea what that means in terms of 4 wheelers. The branch would probably only be a brake composite most of the time, maybe summer weekends they'd add an extra carriage. The headshunt is 8" long, which should be plenty for any tank engine you'd reasonably chuck at it.

 

Once I'd done that, I looked up photos of the original, and it occurred to me that it was even more similar to actual Ventnor than I'd expected, so after a couple of tweaks here in all its glory is "Ventdor" (shotgun the name in the highly unlikely scenario that I ever build it...)

Ventdor.png.9516aa8b62e04f5d4221bcab107e7099.png

I think that's captured the essence of the place... 

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On 27/05/2020 at 17:44, Nearholmer said:

I don’t accuse you of hypocrisy: any railway modeller who doesn’t have plans bigger than their space is lacking in imagination.

 

Or they own the O2....

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Posted (edited)
On 29/05/2020 at 09:42, Zomboid said:

Here's that in Anyrail to some kind of scale. Obviously there's scope to make the platform a bit longer if you like/ need.

 

PL01.png.8dbb3360bcbf1177a3b5a6842903136a.png

 

Nice and wonky because that's more interesting to look at...

 

Haven't yet thought of a way to get your asymmetric demand terminus in without it being a total cliche. But that's what lunch breaks are for... 

 

I can't help thinking it would be better with the branch coming off the main platform.  Bit like Bodmin GWR.  Interesting operation when two trains arrive together, probably because one is two hours late because the fireman let the fire go out, or have to depart  simultaneously or nearly together.  With two branches trains getting out of sync gets a lot more likely.  The layout needs engines and coaches.   Too boring with DMUs or Auto trains for my liking.

Ventnor is just a bit too iconic and a bit unbelievable to my way of thinking

Screenshot (355).png

Edited by DavidCBroad

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You're right of course, the most likely arrangement is the BLT with a bay platform, and Ventnor is pretty easily identifiable. Though if the OP wants to just do a representation of Ventnor then it will fit on a door without losing what makes it identifiable.

 

I've been looking at having an island platform inside the run round, which is of course a characteristic of Ventnor, but the throat can be changed to move it away from that.

 

Other options might be too have a typical BLT but with a platform added on the run round, or to copy Helston and have it built as a through station.

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Posted (edited)

Here we go, an island platform. I imagined access at the end via a level crossing (Haven Street this time).

I doubt anything like this has ever been built in the UK - the scissors junction was a feature of Exmouth though, so it might be possible to make something halfway believable with this throat.PL03.png.5395c3cd35f0fbda9fbde7fa24a3853c.png 

Edit: this could be something maybe a little bit believable...

PL04.png.9404738fff55c22e8dab26d8c346de65.png

Could be quite fun if the branch train is loco hauled (the same goes for @DavidCBroad's suggestion above, it's not much different). I'd imagine that when two trains were in the station at the same time, the branch would use the bay (could also be full length). Once the main line train has gone the branch train would shunt over to the main to run round. If it connects with the next main line arrival then it would shunt back to the bay to await that there. A run round in the bay would be possible, but would reduce the play value.

Edited by Zomboid
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Interesting discussion folks, lots of food for thought.  Not sure I can contribute anything though!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

doubt anything like this has ever been built in the UK


Tooban Junction in Ireland?

 

Broom Junction?

Edited by Nearholmer

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On 27/05/2020 at 10:43, Zomboid said:

Kirkby is the same as Ormskirk I think. And there's only one platform at Southport which is accessible from both Liverpool and Preston. That kind of thing is quite common though - Inverness and Brighton immediaetly come to mind as similar.

 

No rail connection at Smallbrook though. Nor Cholsey - I wouldn't be especially shocked if joint NR/ Heritage stations without rail connections were more common than those with.

 

Thinking about stations which are shared by standard gauge heritage lines and the national network:

 

Cholsey (CWR) - No connection (last time we looked into this it would cost several million pounds, and I suspect NR have put an electrification mast in the way since!)

Eridge (Spa Valley) - No conncection

Smallbridge Junction - No connection

 

Alton (MHR) - Connection

Chinnor (C&PRR) - Connection

Paignton (P&DSR) - Connection

Bodmin Parkway (BWR) - Connection

Keighley (KWVR) - Connection

Grosmont (NYMR) - Connection

Robertsbridge (RVR) - Connection

Aviemore (SSR) - Connection

 

In addition, the Severn Valley, North Norfolk, Mid-Norfolk, Nene Valley, East Lancs, Churnet Valley, Ribble Steam Railway, Midland Railway Centre and Scottish Railway Preservation Society all have main line connections but do not share a station.

 

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Posted (edited)

This really doesn't belong here considering

On 27/05/2020 at 17:13, Peter Lord said:

I want to model somewhere that is clearly very quiet and has limited services

 

But here is today's lunch hour special - after a few iterations this is an "inspired by the track plan of Exmouth" exercise in cramming as much track as possible onto a door:

PLExm5-code75.png.6da1851c247bac14c5ae8a989a345417.png

 

Train lengths on the main would at a guess be 3 bogie carriages plus a CCT with a tank engine. Might get away with it using an N class or similar, but anything bigger than a 2-6-0 would be too much. I think there might be space in the loco servicing area for a turntable too, if it's sensibly sized. The top run round would probably accommodate 3 bogie carriages. Trains on the main or branch that need to run round in the bottom platform would be limited to 2 carriages. The run round could be extended past the double slip, at the cost of flexibility.

 

As for freight? No chance matey...

 

So long as short trains are OK then this is probably far more layout than one person could reasonably expect to operate at anything like it's capacity...

 

I should post this somewhere else really.

Edited by Zomboid
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Still think this topic should move to layout topics.

 

Rob.  

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