Turning Loco Around

[Riccarton Junction]

Apologies if this is in the wrong place - there are a lot of sub-forums around here and it may take me a while to get my bearings 

 

Just wondering about how locomotives (steam) turned round at stations (especially at small stations where there wasn't huge shunting yards). For examples:

 

1. Loco and carriages pull into buffers at a small branch line station. How does the engine get to the front again for the return journey?

2. Loco comes into a smallish goods yard. How does the engine get to the front again to take freshly loaded goods away?

 

Guessing some form of shunting is involved. I'm new to modelling and also new to how steam locomotives operated, so apologies in advance for what may seem like obvious questions. Only way to learn is to ask!

[ikcdab]

The most usual thing is a run round loop with a crossover at the buffer stops.

Less common in goods sidings.

Where there was no loop or release crossover, you would need a second loco (station pilot) to remove the stock to release the loco or otherwise assist in shunting.

Variations on these themes were legion, Google a few track plans and have a look.

Ian

[philsandy]

5 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

Apologies if this is in the wrong place - there are a lot of sub-forums around here and it may take me a while to get my bearings 

 

Just wondering about how locomotives (steam) turned round at stations (especially at small stations where there wasn't huge shunting yards). For examples:

 

1. Loco and carriages pull into buffers at a small branch line station. How does the engine get to the front again for the return journey?

2. Loco comes into a smallish goods yard. How does the engine get to the front again to take freshly loaded goods away?

 

Guessing some form of shunting is involved. I'm new to modelling and also new to how steam locomotives operated, so apologies in advance for what may seem like obvious questions. Only way to learn is to ask!

 

For a passenger train at a terminus there would need to be a run round loop, the loco would uncouple from the carriages and run round to the other end of the train. It would then run bunker/tender first (ie. running in reverse) pulling the carriages. Or the use of an auto coach to operate as a push pull unit. ie. the loco always stays at the same end of the train and either pulls the carriages or pushes them. When pushing,  the auto coach  is at the front.

[Riccarton Junction]

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. 

 

As an aside, was just browsing the brilliant Disused Stations website and came across Sidmouth:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/index.shtml

 

...and there is a description of how locos switched ends without a run-round 

 

Quote

A passenger train awaits departure from the short  platform line at Sidmouth station in August 1963. This line has no run-round  facility. After passengers have left an arriving train it has to be pushed back  out of the platform to allow the locomotive to uncouple and run onto the shed  line. The coaches then roll back into the platform by gravity allowing the  locomotive to be attached to the front of the train ready for departure.

 

Perfect!

[ikcdab]

3 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. 

 

As an aside, was just browsing the brilliant Disused Stations website and came across Sidmouth:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/index.shtml

 

...and there is a description of how locos switched ends without a run-round 

 

 

Perfect!

Just bear in mind that they are referring to the bay platform. The main had the usual run round loop. I suggest that such gravity shunting was very rare indeed in the 1960s, esp on passenger stock. 

[Riccarton Junction]

9 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Just bear in mind that they are referring to the bay platform. The main had the usual run round loop. I suggest that such gravity shunting was very rare indeed in the 1960s, esp on passenger stock. 

 

Would this diagrammatic example of a "Terminal headshunt" from wiki be the kind of thing you mean by run-round loop?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headshunt#:~:text=A run round loop (or,"running round a train".

[ikcdab]

3 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

 

Would this diagrammatic example of a "Terminal headshunt" from wiki be the kind of thing you mean by run-round loop?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headshunt#:~:text=A run round loop (or,"running round a train".

Exactly so. You will see the UK version in the photos and diagrams on the disused stations Sidmouth site that you quoted. This arrangement was very common indeed on UK terminal stations. 

Ian

[Riccarton Junction]

1 minute ago, ikcdab said:

Exactly so. You will see the UK version in the photos and diagrams on the disused stations Sidmouth site that you quoted. This arrangement was very common indeed on UK terminal stations. 

Ian

 

Not having much of a clue (yet) how Steam Locos work, I assume that if the headshunt results in the engine being at the front, but still facing into the platform, it can still move forward ok i.e. the engine doesn't need to be pointing the direction it's going (as in the Sidmouth pic)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/sidmouth(tarr8.1963)old3.jpg

[ikcdab]

4 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

 

Not having much of a clue (yet) how Steam Locos work, I assume that if the headshunt results in the engine being at the front, but still facing into the platform, it can still move forward ok i.e. the engine doesn't need to be pointing the direction it's going (as in the Sidmouth pic)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sidmouth/sidmouth(tarr8.1963)old3.jpg

Steam engines run equally well in either direction. Tank engines are specifically designed for this.

[Riccarton Junction]

1 minute ago, ikcdab said:

Steam engines run equally well in either direction. Tank engines are specifically designed for this.

 

Thanks, Ian.

[Gordon A]

Yes if you look at photos of steam engines on trains, especially on branch lines you should see pictures of locos running tender / bunker first.

[Les Bird]

Steam locomotives can run equally well in reverse, either bunker first in the case of tank engines or tender first. Where tender first running was common (at some  Great Eastern stations for example) the tender might be equipped with some form of cab to protect the crew.

[Il Grifone]

Welcome to RMweb 

Gravity shunting was practised at Yelverton for the Princetown branch. The coaches were backed up the branch and the loco run off into the siding* . The coaches were then run back into the platform and the locomotive coupled on the other end.

*  The line closed in 1956 and I never actually saw it.  

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/princetown-branch.html

 

The same thing occurred at Clifton Down in Bristol (this I did see - frequently our house backed onto the railway    ). The morning goods (usually just coal wagons) would arrive into the headshunt from the Temple Meads direction, then back the brake van into a short siding. Once all the wagons were shunted leaving the empties on a siding , the loco would move the brake van onto the empties and then retire to the short siding in her turn. The wagons then ran down into the headshunt the loco coupled on the other end and then set off back up the line.

 

Turning locomotives involved either a turntable or a triangle.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Andy W]

Gravity shunting of passenger stock certainly lasted until 1966, as this was the standard method at Cowes (Isle of Wight).

[Riccarton Junction]

Daft question, but I'll ask anyway! Assume for Gravity shunting to work, the track into the platform would need to be on a downhill gradient (albeit a gentle one)?

[adb968008]

51 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

Daft question, but I'll ask anyway! Assume for Gravity shunting to work, the track into the platform would need to be on a downhill gradient (albeit a gentle one)?

You don't need much gradient, to make a free rolling item roll.

ive seen a pway trolley and separately a mainline diesel roll off on a 1 in 500...

I also saw the state of the responsible staffs pants as they saw It too !

 

Stopping the trolley was easy... they took some life risks with stopping the diesel, it was at a fast walking pace in around 5 seconds and it wasn't slowing down.

 

Many years ago I recall an EMU incident at Bury Interchange, the unit rolled out with passengers in board, and the signal man at Hag Side was waving wildly to get a passenger to pull the communication cord, as it had achieved around 30mph at one point.

Edited September 29, 2020 by adb968008

[Riccarton Junction]

45 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Many years ago I recall an EMU incident at Bury Interchange, the unit rolled out with passengers in board, and the signal man at Hag Side was waving wildly to get a passenger to pull the communication cord, as it had achieved around 30mph at one point.

 

Wow. Sounds scary 

[adb968008]

27 minutes ago, Riccarton Junction said:

 

Wow. Sounds scary 

I recall reading it in the Bury times at the time.

The passengers apparently had no idea.

c-mid1980’s.

 

The gradient was against it by Hag Side, of course though.. once it would stop..it would then roll backwards until it reached the low of that section (which would be around Peel College /Buckley Wells... though of course it may have rolled forwards and backwards a few times to lose momentum to find that low point !

I don’t know of any recorded incident where that had happened, but its technically possible.. most runaways end up hitting an object.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by adb968008

[Il Grifone]

It needs a gradient to get things rolling, but the destination can be level. Experience would show how much. The moving vehicles would be under the control of the guard.

 

I believe there was an incident as described but can't find anything on it.

[Chimer]

You also asked about goods workings.  The run round loop is still critical, but the difference is that generally goods trains don't arrive at a branch terminus and leave again.  The wagons are shunted into the goods yard to be unloaded and reloaded over the next few hours, days or weeks, and the departing train is made up from the wagons already in the yard which are now ready to leave.  Usually the train engine does the shunting itself. 

 

In the top diagram below, the train engine needs to run round before it can shunt the yard (the 3 parallel sidings).  When it's assembled the outgoing train (remembering the brake van needs to be the last vehicle again) it's ready to go.  In the bottom diagram, the yard is on a kick-back, so the shunting happens first and running round the assembled outgoing train is the last thing before departure.

 

 

Good luck! 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Chimer
Forgot to add diagrams!!

[pH]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The gradient was against it by Hag Side, of course though.. once it would stop..it would then roll backwards until it reached the low of that section (which would be around Peel College /Buckley Wells... though of course it may have rolled forwards and backwards a few times to lose momentum to find that low point !

I don’t know of any recorded incident where that had happened, but its technically possible.. most runaways end up hitting an object.

 

 

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I believe there was an incident as described but can't find anything on it.

David L. Smith describes an incident like that in “Tales of the Glasgow and South Western Railway”. A goods train was divided at Girvan, the first half was taken up to Pinmore and the engine returned to Girvan for the second part. Meantime, the wagons left at Pinmore ran away southwards, through the dip at Pinwherry and up the bank towards Barrhill. They then ran back down through Pinwherry, back up the hill towards Pinmore, and repeated the sequence several times before stopping.

Edited September 29, 2020 by pH
Spelling

[PaulS]

On 29/09/2020 at 09:48, Gordon A said:

Yes if you look at photos of steam engines on trains, especially on branch lines you should see pictures of locos running tender / bunker first.

Probably fair to say that tender-first running at speed was not popular with loco crews as coal dust would be blown at them, and there was less protection from the weather.

[The Johnster]

Speed was restricted to 40mph IIRC for tender first running.  The crews would get the locos turned if that was at all possible and some types such as Midland 4Fs and LNWR G2/G2a that regularly worked tender first had tender cabs, as did all Bulleid, Ivatt, and Riddles designs.  As tenders became larger, they did not need cabs to protect crews from the weather, so it would be of little consequence to the crew  of an A4 or a Black 5 as the tenders were 'full height' anyway, but try to imagine a long run on a dirty winter night tender first with a typical Victorian 0-6-0.  On the GW and probably other railways as well, there was a canvas sheet rollled up under the back of the cab roof that could be fastened by eyelets to hooks on the tenders and bunkers.

 

But. again on the GW and a few decades earlier, attempts to put weather boards and later cabs on locos resulted in complaints from drivers that their view ahead was being obstructed.  This was repeated when Churchward equipped one of his 'County' 4-4-0s with a Holden style cab; the locoment complained that their view was restricted and that the cabs were too hot.  Churchward went back to building locomotives with open half cabs, and Holden  went to the GER where his cabs were much admired and appreciated by the loco crews.  Collett provided something like a halfway measure for the Castles and subsequenct tender locos.

[eastglosmog]

There was also the practice of using a tow rope to pull wagons with the locomotive in an adjoining siding or a bar to push them.