Crabs and Compounds on the S&D

[johnofwessex]

I gather that both of these  classes worked on the S&D

 

Are there any photo's of either of these classes on the S&D or details of their workings on the line.

 

Certainly I have seen pictures pf Crabs lined up at Bath to work North but never to head south.

 

The Crabs certainly look like a loco that would do well on the S&D but I dont know why they were not used more often.

 

 

[Compound2632]

D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973) p. 178:

 

"The onset of hostilities in 1939 cut short this modernisation programme and most of the Class 5s were taken away. As a temporary substitute Compound 4-4-0 No. 1046 was sent, but it seems to have bee used only on semi-fasts and locals."

 

"By 1943 the motive power situation was less critical and sundry LMS 'Crab' 2-6-0s appeared on the Somerset and Dorset to take charge of the main trains until replaced the following year by Class 5s."

 

So only in wartime, which makes the chance of finding photographs pretty slim I should think, or even details of workings. Perhaps there are the descendants of some Abwehr agent with an interesting collection of information?

 

The list of surplus old Southern engines borrowed by the LMS to run the line during the war is fascinating; mostly ex-LSWR engines: S11 Nos. 395-404, T9 No. 304, T1 Nos. 1-6; some S11s went to Gloucester too. Mention is made of brief appearances by Stirling 4-4-0s - presumably F1 4-4-0s.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Compound2632

[queensquare]

Both types were tried over the S&D during the 1920s, along with a MR 3P but for various reasons, mainly operational if I remember, none were permanently allocated. I have some more details somewhere, I will dig it out when I get a chance. Sadly no photos.

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

I hadn't thought to look pre-1930 in Bradley & Milton. p.107:

 

"The LMS however, did give trials to several classes during the 1925-7 period, the first to arrive being Deeley Class 990 4-4-0 No. 995 (coupled to tender No. 1060) in August and September 1925 while Horwich 2-6-0 No. 13064 followed in November 1927. [...] The 2-6-0 did remarkably well on the passenger services, and reasonably proficiently on the goods, and was returned with such glowing reports that all concerned imagined the next passenger engines would be of that class."

 

No mention of Belpaires or Compounds. The idea of a Crab in blue is rather appealing!

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I hadn't thought to look pre-1930 in Bradley & Milton. p.107:

 

"The LMS however, did give trials to several classes during the 1925-7 period, the first to arrive being Deeley Class 990 4-4-0 No. 995 (coupled to tender No. 1060) in August and September 1925 while Horwich 2-6-0 No. 13064 followed in November 1927. [...] The 2-6-0 did remarkably well on the passenger services, and reasonably proficiently on the goods, and was returned with such glowing reports that all concerned imagined the next passenger engines would be of that class."

 

No mention of Belpaires or Compounds. The idea of a Crab in blue is rather appealing!

 

Thanks Stephen, I made my post from memory so you are probably right - 995 having 1060s tender is probably what threw me. 13064 was red in 1927 - bang in my favoured period - I have a Crab finished but unpainted for Bath. The Rev Alan Newman who I was privileged to get to know in his later life, remembered the Crab arriving at Bath when he was a boy. It was towed in a freight with an empty boiler and the motion stripped due to weight restrictions. The other problem was it was too long for the 42' turntable so the pony wheels needed jacking up to turn it - the option of running up to the Mangotsfield triangle wasn't available due to the weak bridges. Bath had to wait until the mid thirties before six coupled locos appeared regularly when they received an allocation of then almost new Black fives. I'm sure I have copies of the reports of the trials, I will dig them out when I have a minute.

 

Jerry

[Jim49]

Peter Smith's recollections "Footplate Over The Mendips" includes a photo of Crab 42922 heading the down Pines near Stalbridge one Saturday in 1949. It's a front 3/4 shot so I can't give you any clue about livery at that time. 

I'm certain I have another photo of a Crab somewhere so will try to find it but don't hold your breath waiting for a reply as I keep getting distracted by neighbouring articles!

 

Jim

[Jim49]

Found another one! Page 94 of Robin Athill's "Somerset & Dorset Railway" shows 2897 leaving Chilcompton tunnel piloted by Jinty 7316(!) on a relief to the down Pines on 28th May 1949. Still not found the one I'm looking for.

 

Jim

[Combe Martin]

I can confirm the above.  Both well known and highly respected S&D experts/celebrities Ivo Peters and Mike Arlett have stated that the 'Crabs' were gone before the fifties.  Whilst I have seen the odd Crab photo on the S&D they've all been before 1950 and even then they are rare (not many photographers then), and hard to find again. 

 

 I've got loads and loads of S&D publications (about 60), every one I could find and I started collecting them years ago. I've done a photo analysis of these, so I've a list by year (starting in 1950) of every loco that was pictured in them, and there are none of Crabs. 

 

Now, I'm in no way suggesting that photographers captured every loco move on the S&D, indeed its probably just a very tiny percentage and mostly at the weekend though there are plenty of mid week pictures too, but I'm sure that if there was the rare occurrence of a Crab in the 50s or 60s someone would have found out and made a point of capturing it. Ivo Peters certainly seemed to be 'in the know'.    

 

So if your an S&D modeller and want to run a Crab in BR days and be accurate, it has to be at the birth of BR and not later.   

Edited January 21, 2021 by Combe Martin

[PenrithBeacon]

I think, but I'm not sure (I certainly couldn't quote references, this really comes under the heading of general knowledge), that the LMS tried out some of its standard classes in the mid-thirties with the objective of replacing the non-standard S&DJR classes with its own. Those tested were the Horwich Mogul, the Black 5 and the 8F, the S&DJR's own Jinties and 2P classes being standard with their LMS equivalents. The Mogul and the Black 5 passed the tests with flying colours but the war intervened before they could be drafted in sufficient numbers to make a real difference. Their use was restarted after the war, but, shortly after nationalisation, the SR was made responsible for the S&DJR and this was why the LMS classes were withdrawn, the SR making do with what they had.

When the SR got hold of the BR standards that were intended to replace or supplement the Black 5 and Mogul ie the Standard 5, and Standard 4 4-6-0 & 2-6-0, they were put on the S&DJR but Black 5s from LMR continued to make appearances on through trains. The Horwich Mogul dropped out of the picture, perhaps because they were fully employed  elsewhere.

To go back to the 8F, this design failed on the S&DJR because it was deemed to have insufficient braking capability for the S&DJR, but I never completely understood why it wasn't fitted with 'Ferodo' brake blocks as the 7F was. This engine, indigenous the S&DJR, was once also deemed to have insufficient braking capability which the fitting of 'Ferodo' brake blocks had cured. I suspect, but I don't know, it came down to a view of standardisation and the cost of making the 'Ferodo' standard across all 8F engines but I'm not sure, I haven't done that bit of research.

Edited January 21, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

Re. the 30s, Bradley & Milton mention the following:

• ex-LTS 4-4-2 No. 2103, "towards the end of 1935" - there's an error here as that is the number of one of the Whitelegg Baltic Tanks, all withdrawn by that date. (unless there was some re-numbering I've missed.) Having displaced the ex-LTS engines from their home territory the LMS found they really didn't work very well anywhere else, despite having built more themselves.
• Stanier 3P 2-6-2Ts Nos. 179-181, c. Oct. 1935. Another class of under-powered passenger tank engine that the LMS management was keen to find a use for.
• Stanier 8F - three allocated to Bath in 1941 but soon taken away. Brakes mentioned per @PenrithBeacon.

plus the Class 5 engines, which were the only success story, eliminating double-heading with The Pines.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[pH]

But 8Fs worked on the S&DJR towards the end. What had changed by then?

[queensquare]

30 minutes ago, pH said:

But 8Fs worked on the S&DJR towards the end. What had changed by then?

 

More fitted stock and much shorter trains.

 

Jerry

[queensquare]

I've now dug out the details of the trials in the 1920s.

 

1924 Compound 1065 was tried out on the S&D

 

August 1925 saw 990 class 4-4-0 No 995 with the tender from 1060 tried. The report states that this was to facilitate turning at Bath though crocodile clips were still necessary. 

 

Finally in October 1927 Crab 13064 was tried out.

 

According  to the reports only the 990 class proved suitable for working 260 ton trains over the line, the Compound couldn't produce sufficient power at low speed and the Crab struggled for steam on the banks. Had it not been for the issue of the small turntable at Bath the entire class of ten locos could have been allocated to the line. As it was the 990s were all scrapped and the S&D had to make do with three more class 2s hurriedly seconded from an LMS batch in 1928. Full reports of the trials, performances and conclusions are reproduced in the S&D Bulletins 75,76 and 77 from 1976.

 

A fascinating one for me was a reference in Bulletin 11, 1966, quoting the Railway Magazine from Nov 1911 of Midland Flatiron no 2023 "running regular passenger services on the S&D......for the purpose of experimental observation" enticingly adding, "...on one or two other occasions Midland engines have worked over this joint line" sadly without saying what.

 

The Rev Alan Newman took this well known picture of the Tilbury tank at Bath in 1935. Evidently it didn't like the banks on the S&D, priming badly and was mainly used on Bristol locals during its short stay. As far as I'maware there are no photos of the trials in the 1920s though it would be wonderful if one turned up.

 

jerry

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by queensquare

[Compound2632]

Aha. I've now got my head part-way round the very confusing renumbering of Tilbury tanks. No. 2103 here was 51 Class No. 62 Camden, MR/first LMS No. 2169, renumbered 1930. I've not worked out what numbers the surviving Baltics took in 1930. What I hadn't appreciated is that the Midland / LMS built 36 more of the 79 Class between 1923 and 1930.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... What I hadn't appreciated is that the Midland / LMS built 36 more of the 79 Class between 1923 and 1930.

What was even more peculiar was that they were never thought of as an LMS Standard! They could pull and run though with very long trains on the LT&S. 

[john new]

Will the OP please add JR to the title. This is not a thread about  the Stockton & Darlington.

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, john new said:

Will the OP please add JR to the title. This is not a thread about  the Stockton & Darlington.

 

But it's in the Somerset & Dorset sub-forum in "Special Interests - UK Prototype", so there can be no confusion.

 

Of course S&D is a perfectly legitimate way of referring to the line before 1875 and after 1947, so if the OP's interest is primarily in the British Railways period, there is no need to change the title.

 

An S&DR locomotive. Eat your heart out William Bouch.

 

On the other hand, I suspect it's going to be even harder finding examples of Crabs or Compounds working on the ex-Stockton & Darlington lines of BR(NE)!

Edited January 21, 2021 by Compound2632

[john new]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But it's in the Somerset & Dorset sub-forum in "Special Interests - UK Prototype", so there can be no confusion.

 

Of course S&D is a perfectly legitimate way of referring to the line before 1875 and after 1947, so if the OP's interest is primarily in the British Railways period, there is no need to change the title.

 

An S&DR locomotive. Eat your heart out William Bouch.

 

On the other hand, I suspect it's going to be even harder finding examples of Crabs or Compounds working on the ex-Stockton & Darlington lines of BR(NE)!

Sorry if I am being picky but I keep forgetting when it appears on the New Activity list. Possibly my OCD'ness.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by john new

[RailWest]

Just be thankful that you are not interested in the railway around Wimborne then!

 

You start with the S&DR (Southampton & Dorchester Railway), add the S&DR (Somerset & Dorset Railway, as successor to the DCR), then the S&DJR (Salisbury and Dorset Junction Railway, whose trains arrived from West Moors) followed by the S&DJR again (Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway) :-)

Edited January 23, 2021 by RailWest