Unusual trackform (bullhead rail, industrial) - does anyone recognise this?

[Mol_PMB]

I've just been searching ebay for more photos of the Manchester Ship Canal Railway. I found a lot of old negatives of MSC tugs which are quite nice in their own right, but one of the images shows the MSC Railway track in the foreground and there is a very odd trackform on one of the lines.

 

Here is the photo, grabbed off ebay. Please ignore the rectangle which was due to my incompetence, I don't think affects the question...

The track in the foreground has bullhead rail like the others, but with very odd chairs and apparently an iron tie-bar between them instead of a continuous sleeper.

 

I've seen concrete sleepers in two halves with a tie-bar in much more modern trackforms like those used in France on the LGVs (TGV lines) but this version is new to me.

I almost wonder if there might be no wood at all - just two very wide-based chairs with a gauge tie?

 

Has anyone seen this before and have any more information? It would be a quirky micro-detail to incorporate in a siding on my planned MSC layout.

 

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

This is the ebay listing:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Old-negs-of-Manchester-Ship-Canal-Tugs-Deborah-Diana-Mallard-Ranger-Quest/233867935640?hash=item36739d7f98:g:GMIAAOSwEh1gCYo5

[phil_sutters]

In volume 6 of David Gladwin's A history of the British Steam Tram, there is a similar system for spacing tramway grooved rails before setting them in paving. The inventor or manufacturer was Mr Kincaid who had a patent no. 64 of 1876 for the design and one in 1872 for an earlier pattern.

Edited January 24, 2021 by phil_sutters
Clarification.

[Mol_PMB]

19 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

In volume 6 of David Gladwin's A history of the British Steam Tram, there is a similar system for spacing tramway grooved rails before setting them in paving. The inventor or manufacturer was Mr Kincaid who had it with patent no. 64 of 1876.

 

Many thanks Phil, that's a great observation. A quick search found this snippet in a google book:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JT_iCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT244&lpg=PT244&dq=kincaid+patent+tramway+track&source=bl&ots=3hhuiHYWPg&sig=ACfU3U1_juuKPIvFriR-ncuvIDt5xnKtLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1sbWgvbDuAhXUmFwKHe3KD3MQ6AEwBXoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Perhaps the MSC Railway used this trackform for embedded track in the docks, and tried it on some normal sidings too?

Cheers,

Mol

[phil_sutters]

There seems to have been some dispute over the validity of the 1876 patent, while it was being used in Newcastle. Kincaid had let a previous patent lapse and the 'new' design was claimed not to be sufficiently different to warrant a new patent. 

[Dagworth]

Is it some form of pot sleeper? See 

Andi

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Andi for the links to those threads on pot sleepers which are very interesting indeed. 

I think it is that basic concept, but maybe without the ‘pot’. 

In this case the chairs are large and non-standard, and there is no obvious fastening to a block below. The tie bar is bolted on top of the chairs. 

I have bought the original images and will scan them to a higher standard when they arrive. Then I might be bothering my friend with a 3D printer once again! 

[phil_sutters]

Would you like me to scan the photo of Kincaid's patent design and message or email it to you? It might help with your 3D printing.

[Mol_PMB]

24 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Would you like me to scan the photo of Kincaid's patent design and message or email it to you? It might help with your 3D printing.

Yes please, Phil. I have sent you a pm with my email address.

Many thanks,

Mol

[SED Freightman]

Although not obvious, there must surely be something below the chair to spread the load, otherwise I would imagine the track would be very prone to developing twist faults.

[Mol_PMB]

It's possible that the base of the chairs is just very large. Certainly they are larger than normal chairs and seem to have ribs spreading out to a shape not much smaller than the concrete pot sleepers shown in an earlier post.

 

It has also been pointed out that the middle track of the three appears to have concrete sleepers which were also non-standard for the MSC Railway. Perhaps this was a location where they experimented with different trackforms?

 

I have not yet been able to identify the location. It's clearly above Runcorn.

[phil_sutters]

Given how much inset track there is in your photos it could well be left-overs, from an inset track scheme, being used in a lightly used siding.

[doilum]

1 hour ago, phil_sutters said:

Given how much inset track there is in your photos it could well be left-overs, from an inset track scheme, being used in a lightly used siding.

Perhaps acquired at scrap value when the local trams were discontinued?

Edited January 24, 2021 by doilum

[TravisM]

London Transport had something very similar to those shown in several depot’s and sidings.  Neasden had a few sidings and from memory, London Road on the Bakerloo had one or two sidings with them in.  I would expect they have all been taken out by now.

[Adam]

Interesting! I think we can discount any tramway connection - tram rail and wheels were quite different even away from street running. It’s likely to have been a catalogue item from one of the permanent way suppliers, TW Ward, Robert Hudson or someone of that ilk. The next road over appears to have concrete sleepers with a narrow section between pads and such items were not uncommon in industrial settings and were probably bought new, even if the rail wasn’t. 
 

Adam

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks!

 

Hopefully I’ll get the original negative in the next few days and can scan it to a higher quality. 

I know a couple of former LU track engineers and will ask them if they know any more. 

Cheers,

Mol

[Mol_PMB]

On 25/01/2021 at 01:16, jools1959 said:

London Transport had something very similar to those shown in several depot’s and sidings.  Neasden had a few sidings and from memory, London Road on the Bakerloo had one or two sidings with them in.  I would expect they have all been taken out by now.

 

Gen from my former LU track engineer contact:

"The Metropolitan Rly did experiment with concrete blocks with a bullhead chair and a tie bar to hold the gauge. This was fine until  electrification spread further north. Many of them then ended up being cascaded into sidings with a sleeper at every 5th to hold the insulators. I recall them being in the track in Neasden Depot, Stanmore Sidings, Rickmansworth Sidings and Uxbridge. Not sure if any still remain. The tie bar was the best tripping hazard I ever came across as it was always proud of the ash that most the siding roads tended to be bedded on. "

 

So this was similar in having a raised tiebar (and it would make sense to raise it above corrosive ash ballast), but used normal chairs on concrete blocks.

 

When I get the original negative of the MSC track I'll scan it to a higher quality and add to this thread, to see if we can make out any more detail. I'm hoping it might have a bit more to see in the background to help us place it geographically - my feeling is somewhere between Latchford and Warburton but it might be west of Latchford. There are several villages on slight hills on the south bank, including Lymm.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Here is a better scan of the original negative showing the unusual track.

The chairs are very large and may be fabrications rather than castings. They appear to have a large rectangular base.

There is no sign of the chairs being mechanically fastened to anything below - the only screws or bolts are those attached to the tie bar. I think we would see bolt heads in the foreground if they were present.

Perhaps the base of the chair is a channel section (like a slice of steel sleeper) or an inverted box to provide better stability that a flat base?

[Mol_PMB]

From the details in the background of the photo, the location is now confirmed as Wigg Island, as shown in the map below. Possibly the crossover just right of centre, although the date of this map is a bit earlier than the photo so there may have been some layout alterations. In the 1960s, Wigg Works was part of ICI and sometimes merited two trains a day, mostly tank wagons.

Most of the MSC Railways were on the north bank of the canal, but the north bank ends a few hundred yards off the left hand side of this map. Further west beyond this point the MSC Railways were on the south bank.

[phil_sutters]

On 27/01/2021 at 16:54, Mol_PMB said:

Here is a better scan of the original negative showing the unusual track.

The chairs are very large and may be fabrications rather than castings. They appear to have a large rectangular base.

There is no sign of the chairs being mechanically fastened to anything below - the only screws or bolts are those attached to the tie bar. I think we would see bolt heads in the foreground if they were present.

Perhaps the base of the chair is a channel section (like a slice of steel sleeper) or an inverted box to provide better stability that a flat base?

The Kincaid chairs had a reasonable sized pad at the base, extending a few inches on either side of the part of the chairs showing above ground, as seen here. Clearly in a tramway setting the support for the rail would have been different.