Bob Hordern Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) Are these two items compatible? Set up below... x1 Powercab (2amps) works fine on my layout using the track output from the PCP panel. Happy enough for now, but more throttles, locos & extension are on their way. x2 Merg DCOs (one per district) added to system recently and work OK Merg Booster (at 5amp) bench tests as working fine too When all of these are installed using the track output link, locos run OK at slow speed. However as speed is increased the cutouts/AWDs kick in. What is going wrong? Is it possible that the Powercab output is too great for the booster? Can I add a resistor to either the PCP-booster link or on the booster board itself to deal with this? Pretty sure the components are all working OK and the layout is too - substituting a simple length of plain track gives the same results. Tried using the LOCONET DCC signal outputs (green and red wires) via the RJ45 sockets (middle two) but this gave an immediate cutout. Anyone been down this route? Would welcome some advice. Bought the kits via a friend in MERG so don't really have access to MERG forum for this query. Regards, Bob Edited February 2, 2021 by Bob Hordern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted February 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2021 We have a number of MERG kits on our club's layout, on a colleagues layout and at home here. All use the NCE SB5 which as you can probably guess is a 5 amp output unit - a bit more power than the PowerCab puts out. The outputs from our SB5 either go direct as inputs to MERG boosters and then to a pair of DCO or direct from the SB5 to a pair of DCOs. You may find, as we have done that in some circumstances the DCOs will trip for no easily apparent reason. The DCOs can be set to either a 1.5 or 3 amp setting - my home (OO) layout has them set for 1.5 amp, the other two layouts - both O gauge - have them set at 3 amp. You can also delay the trip time by using jumpers S0 to S3. The last page of the instructions with the kit has a table detailing how the jumpers should be set to generate the appropriate delay. We experimented starting with just a jumper on S0 and then followed the table's settings until the DCO no longer tripped for no apparent reason. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Thanks for quick reply Ray. Using the MERG booster was in part to avoid the cost of SB5, so I'm still wondering if the Powercab can work directly with the MERG booster and no SB5 involvement? Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted February 2, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 2, 2021 I don't see why it shouldn't. It's not the power the SB5 can output, more the power it needs to output to meet the requirement of the equipment using that power so the booster will only draw the power it needs which in turn probably depends on the power the relevant section of the layout requires. Give it a try, I can't see it will do any harm/damage. I'd also try the various DCO trip time combinations before deciding that it doesn't work. Don't forget that the PowerCab itself will trip if it encounters a short that it doesn't like. I don't think we've managed to trip the SB5s on the club layout where as the DCOs have tripped a few times when there's been an unintentional short, even with some of the settings we've got for the trip times of the DCOs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 15 hours ago, Ray H said: It's not the power the SB5 can output, more the power it needs to output to meet the requirement of the equipment using that power so the booster will only draw the power it needs which in turn probably depends on the power the relevant section of the layout requires. The booster requires its own power supply, it does not draw any power from the Powercab. I doubt very much the Powercab has Loconet DCC output. NCE do not use Loconet. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) Yes I am using the correct booster PSU Sorry, should be -RS-485 and +RS-485 signals Bob Edited February 3, 2021 by Bob Hordern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 We, (MERG) have recently let somme booster kits out with an incorrect overload sensor whih resulted in the booster being underpowered, suggest you get in touch, presumably through the member who got the booster for you, with the MERG technical support to confirm the problem and get it fixed. The MERG boosters do work with the NCE Powercab. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted February 3, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 hours ago, Crosland said: The booster requires its own power supply, it does not draw any power from the Powercab. Surely it must draw some (minimal) power from the PowerCab by way of the commands that are to pass through the booster en rote to the track itself or the track (and accessory) busses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Ray H said: Surely it must draw some (minimal) power from the PowerCab by way of the commands that are to pass through the booster en rote to the track itself or the track (and accessory) busses. Yes, OK , but only enough to light the LED in the opto-coupler at the input. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted February 3, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2021 just to expand a bit on what Andrew has said the Booster doesn't need much power on the input what it is looking for is the timing of the pulses which carry the signals. It will provide the power needed for the layout itself. It just needs to know when to change the polarity. This is why you can use a single Merg Command Station to drive a number of Boosters if the layout needs them. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted February 4, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2021 Think it's worth saying that this issue is being addressed on the MERG forum, as it really should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 Hmm This issue and its discussion seems to have stalled on the MERG forum. I think sadly it has them stumped! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 As I understand it the only way you can add power to a PowerCab is to go down the SB5 route. Any input greater than 3A will cause damage to the PowerCab, probably terminal. The SB5 provides a genuine 5A output and also moves the command station element of a PowerCab system from the PowerCab throttle to the SB5. The only thing missing from the SB5 system is a programming track capability for which you need to retain the UTP panel and the flat cable with which to connect the PowerCab throttle. The PowerCab throttle is connected to the new SB5 command station with the curly cable. There is no Loconet connectivity with NCE systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, BromsMods said: As I understand it the only way you can add power to a PowerCab is to go down the SB5 route...... There are other routes John. 1. Any "dumb" booster that accepts a power bus/track input, to read (or sniff) the DCC commands. Connect the PowerCab's track outputs from the PCP to this booster, which will feed the track instead of the PowerCab. Both the PowerCab and the booster, will require their own independent power supplies. The PowerCab will retain its own supplied power supply. 2. DCC Concepts Alpha Box. This is an alternative 5 amp "Smart Booster" to the SB5. The PowerCab's power supply and PCP are discarded and the PowerCab acts just as a throttle, just as with the SB5 and PowerPro. 3. Connect the PowerCab track output to the "Sniffer Port" of any DCC system that has one (e.g. ECoS, Z21 etc, ) The PowerCab then acts as an additional throttle on the host system. . Edited March 18, 2021 by Ron Ron Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Bob Hordern said: Hmm This issue and its discussion seems to have stalled on the MERG forum. I think sadly it has them stumped! Or you gave up asking. Though for balance why should the MERG designers were worried about interconnectivity with another system maker, when NCE show equal lack of concern ? 1 hour ago, BromsMods said: As I understand it the only way you can add power to a PowerCab is to go down the SB5 route. Any input greater than 3A will cause damage to the PowerCab, probably terminal. .... There is no Loconet connectivity with NCE systems. You seem to not understand what a booster does. It doesn't draw much current - about the same as a loco decoder without a loco attached to it. The booster takes this very low current in, and puts it back on to track, with much more power (current) available. Lots of options exist, Ron has outlined a few of the approaches. That said, sticking within one manufacturer does save the issues of working out how to make the connections. I am not sure why you brought up LocoNet; MERG systems don't use it either. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted March 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bob Hordern said: Hmm This issue and its discussion seems to have stalled on the MERG forum. I think sadly it has them stumped! So, as the discussion confirmed: have you connected the track output on the PCP panel, normally the 2 pin plug in connector on the PCB to the NB1B DCC input? Are both units supplied independently with their proper power supplies? This was how Harry left the discussion, he was to check with you that things were wired up as they should be having confirmed that the NB1B unit was working as it should. The fact that the discussion has stalled is down to the fact that no new information confirming the above has been forthcoming I guess Edited March 18, 2021 by RedgateModels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) Hello JOHN So, as the discussion confirmed: have you connected the track output on the PCP panel, normally the 2 pin plug in connector on the PCB to the NB1B DCC input? YES Are both units supplied independently with their proper power supplies? YES This was how Harry left the discussion, he was to check with you that things were wired up as they should be having confirmed that the NB1B unit was working as it should. THE UNIT WORKS, IN THAT MY LOCOS WILL SET OFF OK. HOWEVER ON REACHING 12/13 OUT OF 28 STEPS THE ALARM SOUNDS AND THE POWER CUTS OFF. The fact that the discussion has stalled is down to the fact that no new information confirming the above has been forthcoming I guess I HAVE ASKED HARRY TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION VIA THE MERG FORUM ON MY BEHALF AS I AM NOT A MERG MEMBER. HARRY HAS HELPED ME WITH OTHER ELECTRONICS IN THE PAST. WHILST I AM A LONGTIME MODELLER I AM NEW TO MATTERS DCC. I AM ABLE TO RUN MY LAYOUT FOR NOW WITHOUT THE BOOSTER. My apologies to you John, I was not aware that you were talking to Harry via MERG. I was merely trying to resolve what is becoming an increasingly frustrating issue for me, by posting a query on a different forum. Regards, Bob Edited March 18, 2021 by Bob Hordern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted March 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2021 Bob is some of the track connected directly to the Power Cab or does all the track supply go via the Merg Booster? Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 (edited) All goes directly to booster, Don Edited March 18, 2021 by Bob Hordern Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) On 18/03/2021 at 19:00, Bob Hordern said: THE UNIT WORKS, IN THAT MY LOCOS WILL SET OFF OK. HOWEVER ON REACHING 12/13 OUT OF 28 STEPS THE ALARM SOUNDS AND THE POWER CUTS OFF. Don, Which 'alarm' are you referring to, the one in the NCE PowerCab or one on the MERG booster? On the PowerCab you can have the current drawn on the display instead of the the clock/time. How much current is being drawn at the 'alarm'? Have you set the booster for 3ms or 30ms trip time (LK2 jumper according to the website)? I ask because I have some MERG Kit#57 short circuit devices (SCD), and I had to set the jumper for 6ms to avoid it detecting very short 'shorts' as wheels passed through electrofrog crossings. I was seriously considering the the MERG booster to add to my PowerCab, to the extent that my wiring already incorporates a jumper and physical space where the booster would fit in the circuit. I am therefore very interested in the outcome to this compatibility issue. Ian Edited March 20, 2021 by ISW LK1 replaced by LK2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) Its not a compatibility issue, there is a problem with the booster which is best addressed by the member who bought it taking it up with MERG Technical Support. Edited March 20, 2021 by Grovenor 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 46 minutes ago, Grovenor said: ts not a compatibility issue, there is a problem with the booster Thanks for the clarification. The MERG booster will remain on my list of 'future purchases' once I outgrow the abilities of the PowerCab and need more current. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hordern Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 Well we finally got the thing working. The basic Powercab and MERG booster are compatible after all. Thanks all who contributed to helping me solve this issue both here and via the MERG members' website. All down to mixing up two of the resistors when building the Booster Board!!!!!! So my decision to go with the MERG kit has saved buying the more expensive NCE booster. For £100 I got the booster kit, power supply and three DCOs. Think I will join the MERG club ready for my next project! Regards, Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted March 23, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2021 Good news Bob. I think this could have been resolved far quicker if you had been a MERG member from the start 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISW Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 26 minutes ago, Bob Hordern said: Well we finally got the thing working. The basic Powercab and MERG booster are compatible after all. Bob, Really pleased to hear that. It's definitely something I'll be adding to my layout in the fullness of time. Space had already been allocated, and wiring left to allow easy 'patching' into the existing power supply. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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