BR brake vans in the 1950's.

[Jelly]

Dapol produced a range of BR standard brake van's. Which of the range are suitable for the period 1952-1960.

I understand SR pill box types also survived into this period,how widely would they have been seen?

[SM42]

For that period you could use most of the big 4 brakes and the BR standards. 

 

The vans got around a bit under BR but some of the more specialist like the GW Type tended to stay local.

 

The SR type did get around though off S R metals but would not be a common sight compared to the BR standard or LMS types

 

Older pre grouping vans would probably be in departmental service if still extant

 

Andy

Edited February 14, 2021 by SM42
Aarrgh auto correct

[cheesysmith]

Look for the BTF film about modernisation in Sheffield. The trip freight at the beginning has a SR brake van. 

[The Johnster]

BR pooled the vans on nationalisation, so any type could soon be seen anywhere, especially as the vans on inter-regional trans now worked through to the destinations.  Of course there were exceptions.  Pooling did not suit the WR, which continued wth the GW practice of assigning individual vans to specific workings, so that all sorts of ‘RU’, ‘Return To’, and ‘Not In Common Use’ brandings appeared on them as well as the depot allocation they’d always carried.  The WR ‘got away’ with this as the GW toads were not liked by the other regions because of the brake handle being out in the cold, and were sent home asap if any did escape.  
 

The opposite could be said of the Southern’s  ‘Queen Mary’ bogie vans, which were popular and assiduously chased up by their region if they went beyond the borders.

Pretty much all the RTR brake vans are suitable for anywhere 1952-60, but apart from the WR the predominant types numerically are the LMS, still being built in large numbers in the early 50s, and LNER 20 tonners.  The BR standard brake van was basically the LNER design.  Earlier designs that succumbed to the wagon cull and would be rare by 1960, and Queen Marys off region were rare as rocking horse doodoo, but not unknown.  

Edited February 15, 2021 by The Johnster

[Aire Head]

23 hours ago, Jelly said:

Dapol produced a range of BR standard brake van's. Which of the range are suitable for the period 1952-1960.

I understand SR pill box types also survived into this period,how widely would they have been seen?

 

A particular favourite of mine. It shows a SR Pillbox brake van on the exGNR lines in Shipley, West Yorkshire. It doesn't get much more off region than this.

[The Johnster]

Love the ‘grim oop north’ backscene, and the ramshackle building (pigeon loft?) left foreground.  A bridge, on which the pillbox is situated, appears to have been created for the purpose of accommodating undergrowth, but there’s not a stem of buddlea to be seen anywhere!  Brilliant photo.  

[Aire Head]

28 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Love the ‘grim oop north’ backscene, and the ramshackle building (pigeon loft?) left foreground.  A bridge, on which the pillbox is situated, appears to have been created for the purpose of accommodating undergrowth, but there’s not a stem of buddlea to be seen anywhere!  Brilliant photo.  

 

The mills closest to camera still exist as does most of the housing otherwise it's quite a different scene nowadays!

 

This is the view from my back window the mill is circled red and the location of the train is just off camera to the left. The lines behind the train are still in existence however the branch with the train on it is now long gone.

 

To the beer inclined this is also near the location of Saltaire Brewery 

 

Anyway back to brake vans I'm sure I've seen an image of a SR Pillbox up Scotland at some point. Don't forget that significant changes occured between 1952/60 which would affect how common certain types would be.

[hmrspaul]

Don't overlook even 1963 is only 40 years after Grouping, so pre Group designs would still be around - the MR/LMS van for example that Bachmann did survived - and the design was still being used by the engineers in the early 1980s. Wagons were expected to survive for 40 years and it is only the BR period when this became much less true because of the rapid loss of traffic. 

 

Brake vans were generally regionalised well into BR days, we have never got to the bottom of why the SR vans turn up all over the place. They were 25 ton, so 5 ton greater than standard vans, and this may have been the appeal. I don't think the pill box was popular!

 

Paul

[The Johnster]

By my time as a freight guard in the 70s, the only vans left in revenue were the BR standards 20ton, a few LNER standard 20ton. LMS standard 20ton, Southern Queen Marys, and Southern pillboxes.  In 7 years on freight work, I only rode in a QM once, but found it superb in every respect, and only once in a pillbox, which was far too often; it was dreadful and bordering on unsafe, draughty, so rough riding that the lamps kept being shaken out, and not fit IMHO for purpose.  About 70% were BR standards, a design I did not like as the ballast weight was outboard of the axles encouraging rough riding and draughts.  The LMS vans were better built and better riders, but had  a larger cabin that took longer to heat up in cold weather and the doors opened inwards, again promoting draughts.

 

Before 1960, there was much more variety.  The largest single number were probably LMS about to be overtaken by BR standards, but there were still plenty of GWR toads on the WR and short wheelbase 16ton vans of various descriptions.  Go back to 1952 and there were still the likes of Warners, Dance Halls, and even one or two 'road vans' for some workings.

 

BR in 1948 found themselves responsible for a huge fleet of general merchandise vans and wagons, and XPO  wooden minerals, and of course a large number of brake vans, many of which were in poor condition after years of neglect and overloading/high mileages during the war.  An 'Ideal Wagons Committee' was set up to deal with the problem, it's remit being to identify what was worth saving and to investigate the features best suited to the new standard stock, which began to appear in 1949 though big 4 designs continued in production for some time after that.  This committee sounds like the worst sort of nationalise industry beauracratic talking shop, but was in the event highly effective in rationalising the fleet.

 

Wagons went through a sort of triage, 'one journey only' for withdrawal, overhaul in their current state, or upgrading with disc wheels, better buffers, instanter couplings, vacuum brakes etc.  Wooden minerals and general merchandise unfitted opens were not to be painted if overhauled in their current state, and new unfitted wooden opens were not painted either. 

 

By the mid 50s, a huge number of XPO and gen. merch stock had gone, filling storage sidings and disused lines pending sale for scrap, and this included the bulk of what pregrouping stock was on hand in 1948, including brake vans.  The new standard vehicles were being produced in volume and making a significant impact.  After about 1955, there was the start of a sea change in traffic patterns, with losses to road transport increasing steadily year on year, which hastened the withdrawal of older stock and inroads began into earlier big 4.  The XPO minerals took longer and a few were still knocking around in the early 60s, but I would suggest that, as a general rule, there was very little pregrouping stock around after 1960 and none after except some special traffic low mileage wagons like Trestrols and Crocodiles.  Iron Minks seemed to last a long time as well.  We are talking about revenue here, not departmental where all sorts of museum pieces hung around. 

 

In 1963, two events of major pertinence to the thread occurred; firstly, the Beeching report decimated smaller goods depots and a huge amount of traffic was lost.  I would suggest that, within a year of it, there was very little pre-WW2 freight stock still running in revenue, and this would apply to brake vans as well.  Also in 1963, the National Union of Railwaymen successfully convinced the Western Region that it's single balcony GW toad design was a safety risk as the guard could not necessarily use the small non-balcony end window to escape the van in the event of an accident or fire.  The GW toads were withdrawn from service forthwith and replaced by pool BR standards or LMS vans; this was effectively the demise of the WR's RU brake van policy.  Most toads were scrapped but the departments had an early xmas; the large cabins made them ideal for mess and tool van conversions, the route by which most preserved examples escaped the torch. 

 

The sidings and disused lines full of stored wagons taken out of service by the IWC (not the Isle of Wight Central) were steadily sold for scrap, van bodies being popular with farmers and small businesses for storage sheds but opens being mostly burned and the bare chassis sold to scrappies.  Dai Woodham set up shop on Barry Docks at around this time.  As a child, I lived near Crwys (say crew iss) Sidings in Cardiff and several roads at the back were full of such wagons, which were a playground for us and I remember us using brake van stoves in cold weather; they all disappeared over a few weeks in 1962.  When the yard was lifted (1969?) and cleared for housing developmet the adjacent areas were overrun with rats, size of small horses they were...

 

If only HMRS Paul, or me for that matter with my little 127 Brownie, had taken some photos, a seriously valuable archive would have been created.  All manner of pregrouping loveliness there for the clambering over; heaven!!!  And there were more at Cherry Orchard, a couple of miles up the line, and no doubt hundreds of other places as well.  At Tondu withdrawn wagons and vans were stored on the disused side of the Brymenyn-Ogmore Jc-Ynysawdre triangle.

[brossard]

Marvellous descriptions of life in the real world of brake vans, thanks Johnster.

 

My approach has been to collect (O gauge) vans from all the regions, most of which are kits but my BR standard van is from Dapol.

 

I have a couple of unfitted vans, but by 1962 I think most trains were fitted, so I've been building through piped mostly.  However, my exLNER van is vac fitted.

 

John

Edited February 15, 2021 by brossard

[The Stationmaster]

GWR toads remained in regular traffic use until 1965  - they were not withdrawn from traffic use in 1963.  They all went to 'Not In Common Use' post nationalisation to prevent them going off the WR but they were not all allocated to specific places or workings so not all of them carried an RU (Restricted User) branding. 

 

The size of the wagon fleet in traffic from the early 1960s if nit earlier was controlled by a process called 'Monetary Limits' with any wagon labelled for repairs for whatever reason being either put nto store or assessed to see what repairs were need and how much they would cost.  If the work was costed at below teh limit for that type of wagon it was repaired but if not it was put into store pending either a change in the limits or condemnation if it was too expensive to repair or was unlikely be needed.     Generally scrapping depended on the priced a wagon would get at scrap value and wagons woiuld be held for long periods  in case scrap prices rose or if they might be needed to return to traffic.

 

The Monetary Limits system was a good one as long as seasonal variations occurred in wagon use.  Thus a particular type of wagon where there was a surplus would have a very low limit (usually 10/- (later 50p) until traffic needs pushed the limit upwards.  However with traffic declining the number of wagons going for scrap gradiually rose particularly as places to store them become fewer with track which had no other purpose being removed.  At one place where I worked in the 1970s we had between 200 & 300 wagons regularly kept on hand purely to wait and see if the limits were increased.  Interestingly private owners of wagons where they had a surplus - e.g. tank cars - did exactly the same thng and stored wagons until suc time as it became worthwhile to spend money on getting them repaired.

 

Once TOPs came along it really began to change as thefar more efficient use of wagons it brought enabled substantial reductions in the wagon fleet.

Edited February 15, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Jelly]

I would especially like to thank The Johnster, Aire Head and The Stationmaster as well as others for their contributions  to this topic so far.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Jelly

[hmrspaul]

On 15/02/2021 at 18:00, brossard said:

 

 

I have a couple of unfitted vans, but by 1962 I think most trains were fitted, so I've been building through piped mostly.  However, my exLNER van is vac fitted.

 

John

Sorry John this simply isn't true. The backbone of BR was mineral traffic and even in September 1966 there were only 11104 fitted 16tonners compared to 247,266 unfit. Similarly the standard 21ton hopper mineral was 1050 fitted compared to 36,411 unfit. The steel carrying fleet had a majority of unfit and few specially constructed wagons were fitted. Yes the merchandise fleet had largely become fitted. As to brake vans (which were much less common than might be expected) there were 5752 unfit vers 4457 fitted, and a lot of those would only have had through pipe.

 

Paul

[brossard]

Yes Paul, I was thinking of merchandise traffic, not mineral.  I have tried to balance my wagons accordingly.

 

John

[The Johnster]

Very few brake vans were actually fitted with vacuum or air brakes even in the 70s; there is of course no need to have a brake capable of being applied from the locomotive even on a fully fitted train, as the van contains an effective brake applying mechanism in the form of the guard using the handbrake.  Piped only vans were the norm by the late 60s, and there were significant numbers, especially on the longer distance jobs, in the 50s.  You can make the point on models by painting the standpipe that the vacuum bag (hose) is attached to, white for a through piped vehicle and red for vacuum or air. 

 

There were still a few unfitted brake vans about in the 70s, instantly identifiable by their grey livery.  For a class 7, 8. or 9 train they were perfectly fine of course; a piped van on such a train is in effect just another unfitted vehicle, albeit one with a guard operated handbrake.

 

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Sorry John this simply isn't true. The backbone of BR was mineral traffic and even in September 1966 there were only 11104 fitted 16tonners compared to 247,266 unfit. Similarly the standard 21ton hopper mineral was 1050 fitted compared to 36,411 unfit. The steel carrying fleet had a majority of unfit and few specially constructed wagons were fitted. Yes the merchandise fleet had largely become fitted. As to brake vans (which were much less common than might be expected) there were 5752 unfit vers 4457 fitted, and a lot of those would only have had through pipe.

 

Paul

The WR Section L1 (basically Paddington - Swindon) for 1966-67 lists very few fully fitted freights -virtually none except for (some) 'Company Trains'

[Mol_PMB]

This image was sold on ebay recently and shows a rather nice 'brake van special' comprising BR, LNER, LMS and GWR vans. What a shame they didn't have an SR one handy!

 

I think this was 1967 by which time I guess there was a higher proportion of fitted vans, and/or they were deliberately selected for this 'passenger' duty.

 

The location is Manchester so the GWR van is a little off-piste and a late survivor.

[The Johnster]

I seriously doubt that any of the vans in the picture are fitted, but are almost certainly all through piped through, in other words there are not vacuum braked, there are no vacuum cylinders, and the brakes cannot be applied from the locomotive even if the vacuum hoses (we called them bags on the Western) are connected.  There are hoses, connected underneath the van by a pipe, painted white, which may have a junction for pipes leading into the cabin for a 'setter' and a vacuum gauge.

 

The purpose of this is to allow the vans, or any other piped through vehicles, to be included in the 'fitted head' of a part fitted train or anywhere in a fully fitted one, though the last two vehicles of a fitted head or fully fitted train must be fitted with vacuum brakes capable of being applied from the loco, and they must be in full working order.  Brake vans do not need to be vacuum fitted as they have a guard aboard them who can use the handbrake, but empty brake vans can be marshalled into the fitted head or as part of a fully fitted train.  This is a special working over the Manchester Ship Canal network and some of it's connecting goods only lines, and is being run under special instructions so that the normal passenger carrying regulations do not apply. and I wouldn't mind betting the passengers have had to sign waivers to be allowed to board it.  The pug has no vacuum brake in any case.

[Mol_PMB]

I believe the later LNER brake vans, such as the one included in this train, had a vacuum brake cylinder fitted. 

Whilst the ‘Pug’ may not have been vacuum fitted in BR service, by this time it was a preserved loco and had an ejector fitted. The vacuum pipe can just be seen under the front bufferbeam. 

[hmrspaul]

16 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I believe the later LNER brake vans, such as the one included in this train, had a vacuum brake cylinder fitted. 

Whilst the ‘Pug’ may not have been vacuum fitted in BR service, by this time it was a preserved loco and had an ejector fitted. The vacuum pipe can just be seen under the front bufferbeam. 

Some did, but very few. It is possible - perhaps even probable - that they found some vacuum braked vans to go with piped ones. 

 

And GWR design vans survived well into the late 1980s - but not in revenue traffic. The engineers seemed to like them; Johnster may be able to explain why, perhaps they were better built and were more wind proof? I'm not convinced any LMS Stanier vans were VB, although many were VP. 

 

PAul

[petemster]

Here's a pillbox near Millerhill Yard, Edinburgh, in 1964.

 

 

Photo by Brian Flannigan on flickr.

 

www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/8097876923/in/album-72157631917286948/

 

So it must have passed through a lot of territory to get to Edinburgh.

Edited February 19, 2021 by petemster

[The Johnster]

The GW toads were popular as departmental brake vans because of thier large cabin and the ease of enclosing the veranda, to make mess/tool vans and the like to run with cranes and such equipment.  They were well built, and sturdy, and lasted many years after their withdrawal from revenue; on withdrawal (1965, not 1963, thanks for the correction Stationmaster), many were of post-war build and with many years service left in them.  Swindon was still building them in the early 50s, so some were little more than a decade old.  And of course there was a plentiful supply of them at the right price!

[Rivercider]

I started working as a TOPS clerk in the Bristol Area Freight Centre in 1978, and I don't remember any fitted brake vans, either traffic vans or in the engineers fleet.  At a guess I would estimate perhaps 60% piped, 35% unfitted, and 5% dual piped (vacuum and air) which were mostly allocated to specific workings.

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

Some did, but very few. It is possible - perhaps even probable - that they found some vacuum braked vans to go with piped ones. 

 

And GWR design vans survived well into the late 1980s - but not in revenue traffic. The engineers seemed to like them; Johnster may be able to explain why, perhaps they were better built and were more wind proof? I'm not convinced any LMS Stanier vans were VB, although many were VP. 

 

PAul

The GWR vans were basically a lot cosier and a number of my Guards over the years would have much preferred to use them instead of the abysmal BR standard vans which were terribly draughty things to ride in especially on a cold day.  In fact on one occasion in 1975 one of my Guards got something of a ticking off from me because he arrived back from Bristol East Depot in a GWR pattern van which was officially in CCE use but he claimed it was the only van he could find in East Depot having worked over light engine.  I  got was a rather crafty smile back frm him when I added that I fully appreciated that it was a frosty morning

 

I think If I'd been him and had the choice I might have done the same thing as you'd have got through quite a lot of copies of 'The Sun' or 'Daily Mirror' to try to make a standard van draught proof and warm on a morning like that and I doubt he'd have found many newspapers at East Depot.   So there you have it the older Western Guards who knew Western vans certainly preferred them because they were less draughty and according to some they were better riding than the standard van and the brake was much better. But I must admit, having experienced both over a longish distance, that I found a standard freight brakevan better riding over than a Class 142.

[Yardman]

On 14/02/2021 at 11:27, Jelly said:

Dapol produced a range of BR standard brake van's. Which of the range are suitable for the period 1952-1960.

I understand SR pill box types also survived into this period,how widely would they have been seen?

Saw the SR pillboxes many times on Tyneside.