RMweb Premium TheQ Posted March 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2021 7 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: Collingbourne Kingston A passing loop, two sidings, and thanks to @TheQ for the "horse dock". Was that the smaller siding closest to the station? That I think is a earlier map, the short siding toward the approach road was removed and the loop siding turned into a second long siding almost as long as the siding nearest the main line. The horse dock was squeezed between approach road and the platform , to the left of the station building as you look at it. That required the embankment shown being replaced by a brick supporting wall. The weigh bridge and it's hut, were roughly between the end of that short siding you can see and the platform. The building by the number 215, is the stationmaster's house the only surviving building, now of course a private house. I currently have a model of a section of Collingbourne station in the white plaster stage. The station platform is about 300ft long which is 1200mm in 4mm scale, so it fits neatly on one layout board. Further work has stalled as I have another layout in work at the moment. Collingbourne is on the return side of my retirement layout, the main side will be "Ludgershall change for Tidworth" .Two years till I retire... You can see the words iron works, of the Bourne Iron works, owned by my Great, Great grandfathers cousin ( father's side). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) On 19/03/2021 at 04:59, TheQ said: That I think is a earlier map @TheQ - thanks for that, I've found the 1923/4 version. https://maps.nls.uk/view/106030603 It's good to find someone else with personal knowledge of any of the stations on the M&SWJR - there don't seem to be many of us! I see what you mean about the long sidings. I'm assuming there must have been a good reason for extending them. Was there much freight? Did the Bourne Iron Works use the sidings? Edited November 1, 2022 by KeithMacdonald RMWeb image disaster recovery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted March 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2021 The Bourne works did use the yard, but not that much, I don't absolutely know but I suspect the long sidings May have been used / partly used as Layby sidings for the Long Military trains heading north. When the Sidings were converted I don't know but it is a possibility it was for WW1 or even the Boer War. It's also possible to have been used to park trains that had been used for the troops, as Ludgershall was maxed out during the annual Summer exercises on Salisbury plain. It's only a couple of miles from there to Ludgershall / Tidworth So an easy march for the troops.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 Hat Tip to @TheQ for the useful comments on Ludgershall and Tidworth on another topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) Here's Ludgershall, based on the 1936 map. https://maps.nls.uk/view/106030699 Top left (where it says Pewsey RD) is the main line north to Swindon. Bottom left is the Tidworth branch. Top right is the main line to Andover. Geograph has a picture of some sad stray coaches. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/822264 Army Medical Corp perhaps? For modellers, what would be the most appropriate models for the different eras? Probably need lots of warflats? e.g. Warflat Bogie Flat Wagon BR Grey https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/40248/38-727-Bachmann-Warflat-Bogie-Flat-Wagon-BR-Grey For most recent eras, would it be Intermodal bogie wagons with (and without) containers? 1961 1976 1987 Edited November 1, 2022 by KeithMacdonald RMWeb image disaster recovery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) Tidworth branch Quote Such was the volume of traffic associated with the military that the station became the "senior" station on the M&SWJR system, with annual receipts exceeding those on the entire remainder of the system together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway#Tidworth This is according to the 1936 map, so might easily have changed. https://maps.nls.uk/view/106030729 Lots of zig-zag sidings, presumably to cope with the difference in height between Tidworth camp and the branch line. Edited November 1, 2022 by KeithMacdonald RMWeb image disaster recovery 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 20, 2021 Author Share Posted March 20, 2021 I've been mulling over that Wiki quote: Quote Such was the volume of traffic associated with the military that the station became the "senior" station on the M&SWJR system, with annual receipts exceeding those on the entire remainder of the system together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway#Tidworth Looking at the available online images of the M&SWJR system, they are nearly all "civilian" trains. Photos of any military activity/traffic seem to be rare. Why is that? Was it a British inhibition about photographing anything to do with the military? You're not allowed to do that sir ... Special Branch would like to interview you. See the Train Spotters assisting the MOD Plod with their enquiries. Or did most of the military activity/traffic happen at night? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 20, 2021 Author Share Posted March 20, 2021 (edited) This journey down the quasi-military M&SWJR terminates at Andover Junction. Change here for the London and South Western Railway. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.21160&lon=-1.49430&layers=168&b=1 Bing Bong : Service Announcement. Last-ever(?) known service up the M&SWJR from Andover. Edited November 1, 2022 by KeithMacdonald RMWeb image disaster recovery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 20, 2021 Share Posted March 20, 2021 On 19/03/2021 at 14:54, KeithMacdonald said: Here's Ludgershall, based on the 1936 map. https://maps.nls.uk/view/106030699 Top left (where it says Pewsey RD) is the main line north to Swindon. Bottom left is the Tidworth branch. Top right is the main line to Andover. Geograph has a picture of some sad stray coaches. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/822264 Army Medical Corp perhaps? For modellers, what would be the most appropriate models for the different eras? Probably need lots of warflats? e.g. Warflat Bogie Flat Wagon BR Grey https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/40248/38-727-Bachmann-Warflat-Bogie-Flat-Wagon-BR-Grey For most recent eras, would it be Intermodal bogie wagons with (and without) containers? Most MoD matériel, apart from vehicles, would be conveyed in anonymous vans and opens; 12t ones until the 1980s, then air-braked ones 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted March 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2021 19 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: I've been mulling over that Wiki quote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_and_South_Western_Junction_Railway#Tidworth Looking at the available online images of the M&SWJR system, they are nearly all "civilian" trains. Photos of any military activity/traffic seem to be rare. Why is that? Was it a British inhibition about photographing anything to do with the military? You're not allowed to do that sir ... Special Branch would like to interview you. See the Train Spotters assisting the MOD Plod with their enquiries. Or did most of the military activity/traffic happen at night? "Military passenger trains" were not in military rolling stock. So unless soldiers were leaning out of the carriage you wouldn't know. The freight was concentrated at ludgershall, and for world wars went from there southwards so only 7 miles of track to be photoed on. The line north of Swindon is highly graded, so much heavy stuff came in via the GWR at Rushey Platt or LSWR at Andover . Most of the smaller stuff came in on railway company wagons and vans. The bigger stuff tanks, artillery transported, was in effect rare. Secret during WW1 and transported to France for the duration. The Royal Tank Corp was heavily run down between the wars, the army officers wanted to play with their horses. WW2 of course it was back to being secret again, and much of the hardware was transported to France, and the western deserts. Post WW2 tanks got too big for the UK loading gauge. I can remember the 1960s freight trains into Ludgershall, mostly van stock, carrying parts for the vehicle repair depot, or medical supplies to / from AMED. I only saw one troop train , standard BR stock. I never saw a vehicle train, But the military don't move vehicles around that much, once it gets to it's working depot it generally stays there, unless someone breaks it in a major way. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted March 21, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 21, 2021 On 19/03/2021 at 14:54, KeithMacdonald said: Here's Ludgershall, based on the 1936 map. https://maps.nls.uk/view/106030699 Top left (where it says Pewsey RD) is the main line north to Swindon. Bottom left is the Tidworth branch. Top right is the main line to Andover. Geograph has a picture of some sad stray coaches. https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/822264 Army Medical Corp perhaps? For modellers, what would be the most appropriate models for the different eras? Probably need lots of warflats? e.g. Warflat Bogie Flat Wagon BR Grey https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/40248/38-727-Bachmann-Warflat-Bogie-Flat-Wagon-BR-Grey For most recent eras, would it be Intermodal bogie wagons with (and without) containers? Modern stuff I don't know about , in the 60s is was BR12T vans and the rarer open. Granddad, the ganger's house, is the last house in Butt Street marked on the map, towards the railway, with his sheds alongside the footpath. The other side of the family, Rawlings had its coal yard, just north of the railway line, in the triangle, formed by the railway line, and Tidworth Road.( Passenger station side of bridge 12). They unloaded coal in the freight yard. The small siding by the Prince of Wales hotel was where the other two coal merchants unloaded. None of the three company's had staithes within railway company property. The other two companies smaller yards were on St James Street, and slightly further down the slope from the railway bridge from Rawlings. The road on the southern side of the railway ( between the U and D of Ludgershall )is now called Astor Cresent, it was pre railway called Drove Road and went straight on through Rawlings yard to Tidworth road. One thing I don't know is when the footpath was closed, that ran from St James church, across Doctors meadow, then crossing the freight yard. It wasn't in use in the 1960, but may have legally been there. Now, there are big metal fences surrounding the yard, then it was just a 5 wire fence. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 18/03/2021 at 18:30, KeithMacdonald said: Next station proper on the M&SWJR is Grafton & Burbage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafton_and_Burbage_railway_station It looks like it had a small goods yard with a shed. Was it for the usual M&SWJR traffic? Coal, agricultural (cattle wagons) and milk? Great train spotting locations in the area. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CME and Bottlewasher Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 On 21/03/2021 at 08:24, TheQ said: "Military passenger trains" were not in military rolling stock. So unless soldiers were leaning out of the carriage you wouldn't know. The freight was concentrated at ludgershall, and for world wars went from there southwards so only 7 miles of track to be photoed on. The line north of Swindon is highly graded, so much heavy stuff came in via the GWR at Rushey Platt or LSWR at Andover . Most of the smaller stuff came in on railway company wagons and vans. The bigger stuff tanks, artillery transported, was in effect rare. Secret during WW1 and transported to France for the duration. The Royal Tank Corp was heavily run down between the wars, the army officers wanted to play with their horses. WW2 of course it was back to being secret again, and much of the hardware was transported to France, and the western deserts. Post WW2 tanks got too big for the UK loading gauge. I can remember the 1960s freight trains into Ludgershall, mostly van stock, carrying parts for the vehicle repair depot, or medical supplies to / from AMED. I only saw one troop train , standard BR stock. I never saw a vehicle train, But the military don't move vehicles around that much, once it gets to it's working depot it generally stays there, unless someone breaks it in a major way. Good points. I'm sure I've seen vehicle trains at Luggershall, seen a few specials in the area too, Class 33s etc too. But my memory is hazy. Iirc, Brian Daniels of this parish has driven military trains into other railhead bases As you say coaches etc look pretty much of the era, unless, soldiers are hanging out of windows enmasse. I was disappointed to find out my dad's beloved Centurions were never taken by rail as too big for loading gauge. The downside of running Warwells and Warflats, even Lowmacs and opens, is that with modelled chains etc, hard to represent them loaded then empty (a faff). But I feel that I must include those vehicles/stock, just to have something running down the branch. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 Paging @brian daniels, requesting military intelligence. Over. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 On 20/03/2021 at 16:45, Fat Controller said: Most MoD matériel, apart from vehicles, would be conveyed in anonymous vans and opens; 12t ones until the 1980s, then air-braked ones Just noticed this on Paul Bartlett's ZenFolio "Army 47574 SR box van 12T" https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srvan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 13 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: Just noticed this on Paul Bartlett's ZenFolio "Army 47574 SR box van 12T" https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srvan I'm fairly certain that the van in question was in internal use ( you can just see the branding). The Army did have a small fleet of main-line approved vehicles (two types of pallet vans, one of ordinary ones and one of 13t opens), as well as the vehicle-carrying wagons, but these were far outnumbered by internal-use ones, often of considerable age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, Fat Controller said: The Army did have a small fleet of main-line approved vehicles (two types of pallet vans, one of ordinary ones and one of 13t opens), Was this one of them? https://peco-uk.com/products/br-12ton-pallet-van Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 5 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said: Was this one of them? https://peco-uk.com/products/br-12ton-pallet-van That was one type, built to a (singularily unsuccessful) BR design; there was another type, also with off-set doors, on a longer underframe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 Was it the BR Pallet shock vans VRV? https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalshocvan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 3 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: Was it the BR Pallet shock vans VRV? https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brpalshocvan No as mentioned they had their own design, longer than the BR palvans with an offset door. I have the odd photo but apparently haven't posted them on my site. Earlier they had their own BR standard vans https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/modavan/e27145987 And they had plenty of vans registered for mainline use during WW2, many appearing as standard vans as used by the Companies, including Gunpowder vans. Paul 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Your talking about these BIG Palvans. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 15 hours ago, brian daniels said: Your talking about these BIG Palvans. Thanks - that looks like it would be a good model. I wonder if it could be scratchbuilt from other Dapol kits? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 16 hours ago, brian daniels said: Your talking about these BIG Palvans. That's the one. Can't say I've ever seen one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithMacdonald Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 Something to add to the list of suitable RTR wagons? Rapido Trains gunpowder vans. Quote The movement of gunpowder by rail to military establishments, mines and quarries was once commonplace and the railway companies built special vehicles to safely carry this commodity. The Railway Clearing House produced a standardised design circa 1930 and it was adopted by the GWR, LNER, LMS and Royal Ordnance Factories with minor detail differences. https://rapidotrains.co.uk/gunpowder-vans/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 I have only just discovered this line, having been asked by a customer to make some 7mm stock for it. I took delivery of Vol.2 on Wednesday with in 48 hours I ordered vol.1 and I have been trying to lay my hands on vol.3. If anyone's interested the first kit will be a Brake van. it will be a full kit in 7mm and a 3D printed body in other scales. Marc 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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