Midland and South Western Junction Railway (M&SWJR)

[BR traction instructor]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Check the small print: the survey may have been carried out in 1919 but the new edition not issued until some years later - which would allow for "minor revisions".

 

…the series is 1919-1926 which will probably allow for the minor revision that you suggest.

 

BeRTIe

[KeithMacdonald]

On 31/10/2022 at 11:07, Welchester said:

There were in fact two stations on the High Street; one was a halt on the GWR line to Honeybourne. The building seen under the bridge was the gas works, beyond which was the M&SWJR engine shed.

 

^ Then

and

v Now

 

 

I think I prefer "then".

[KeithMacdonald]

As Andoversford Junction was on the M&SWJR, here something that might be of interest - a BR safety film, made on and around Andoversford , featuring a couple of fictional stations "Aybury" and "Beaton".

 

Spot the stars of the filum:

75174 (Standard Class 4) - the naughty engine that fell off the tracks!

75025 (Standard Class 4) - pulling the breakdown train

82007 (Standard Class 3 Tank) - running light to rescue the stranded coaches

76012 (Standard Class 4 from Eastleigh) - pulling a freight train, with two Ffyffes banana vans at the front.

75025 - now pulling a passenger train

 

In supporting roles:

Coaches W15815 and W34871

 

Worthy of note : The ladies providing emergency services, dispensing the most vital of British Emergency supplies - good and plentiful cups of tea!

 

 

[Compound2632]

We've discussed the northern end of the route, Cheltenham, where the M&SWJR had joint ownership with the Midland of the carriage sidings at the north end of Lansdown Station, along with its own goods / marshalling sidings and engine shed at High Street, but what of the southern end, Southampton?

 

From photos in Barnsley's Vol. 3, I gather the M&SWJR worked passenger trains through to Southampton over the LSWR from Andover. Did it also work goods trains through? The 1909 OS 25" survey shows a group of sidings between the M&SWJR and LSWR lines just west of Andover station; these look likely to be exchange sidings to me. Did the M&SWJR have any facilities of its own at Southampton?

[Welchester]

14 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

As Andoversford Junction was on the M&SWJR, here something that might be of interest - a BR safety film, made on and around Andoversford , featuring a couple of fictional stations "Aybury" and "Beaton".

 

Spot the stars of the filum:

75174 (Standard Class 4) - the naughty engine that fell off the tracks!

75025 (Standard Class 4) - pulling the breakdown train

82007 (Standard Class 3 Tank) - running light to rescue the stranded coaches

76012 (Standard Class 4 from Eastleigh) - pulling a freight train, with two Ffyffes banana vans at the front.

75025 - now pulling a passenger train

 

In supporting roles:

Coaches W15815 and W34871

 

Worthy of note : The ladies providing emergency services, dispensing the most vital of British Emergency supplies - good and plentiful cups of tea!

 

 

Aybury is Leckhampton, Beaton is Andoversford Jct. There are shots of both Gloucester stations. The breakdown train is at Malvern Road. 

[MarcD]

Even if they ran through to Southampton some goods would have been dropped off at Andover. In the same way traffic was on the S&DJR did at templecoombe.

Marc

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, MarcD said:

Even if they ran through to Southampton some goods would have been dropped off at Andover. In the same way traffic was on the S&DJR did at templecoombe.

 

Good point. The wagon on the right in this photo of a mineral train going down the Lickey Incline c. 1895, the wagon in front of the engine of the goods train going up, is one belonging to Read & Son of Salisbury - on whom there is a good article in Richard Kelham's PO wagons of Wiltshire. This firm were the local factors for collieries in Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Cannock Chase, and South Wales, all on the Midland. Presumably this wagon will be routed via the M&SWJR to Andover and thence by the LSWR to Salisbury.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 60912.] 

 

As discussed above, the point of exchange might have been Gloucester rather than Cheltenham. Here's a wagon label for a consignment from the South Leicestershire Colliery to a customer at Andoversford - the Great Western station, not the M&SWJR station. The usual point of exchange between the Midland and Great Western was at Bordesley in Birimingham but in this case that would be a Great way Round, so Bordesley has been struck out and Gloucester (rather than Cheltenham) inserted:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 14468.] 

 

[wagonman]

The exchange of the Read & Son wagon may well have been at Bristol as that would maximise MR mileage!

[KeithMacdonald]

On 02/11/2022 at 12:47, Compound2632 said:

I gather the M&SWJR worked passenger trains through to Southampton over the LSWR from Andover. Did it also work goods trains through?

 

Did they go via the Andover to Redbridge (LSWR)?

a.k.a. the "Sprat and Winkle Line"

As mentioned here on Wikipedia, without explaining where the name came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprat_and_Winkle_Line

Anyone know?

 

Quote

The Sprat and Winkle Line was the common name of the Andover to Redbridge railway line which ran between Andover and Redbridge in Hampshire, England. In the Romsey area it joined, and then left, the Salisbury to Southampton line. It was built by the Andover and Redbridge Railway, which was incorporated in 1858. In 1863 the uncompleted railway was taken over by the London and South Western Railway (LSWR), which opened the line in 1865. The line had been conceived as part of a trunk route from Manchester to Southampton, but when the Midland and South Western Junction Railway opened, the anticipated long distance traffic was disappointing.

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Did they go via the Andover to Redbridge (LSWR)?

 

As that Wikipedia article says:

 

Quote

The 1895 Bradshaw timetable shows five ordinary trains each way on weekdays and two on Sundays. These appear to run to Southampton Docks via Redbridge. (The Bradshaw public timetables are often ambiguous about whether journeys are through or by connecting train.) In addition there are on weekdays limited stop trains at 14:06 from Southampton and 17:15 from Andover Junction. These are daily through trains between Sheffield and Southampton, running over the M&SWJR line and designated South Express and North Express respectively.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Compound2632

[wagonman]

On 03/11/2022 at 19:41, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Did they go via the Andover to Redbridge (LSWR)?

a.k.a. the "Sprat and Winkle Line"

As mentioned here on Wikipedia, without explaining where the name came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprat_and_Winkle_Line

Anyone know?

 

 

 

Yes.

[Nick Holliday]

This charming and well produced leaflet has three suggestions regarding the name.

https://www.testvalley.gov.uk/assets/attach/3788/Sprat-and-Winkle-Line-leaflet-web-180313-.pdf

I think we can reject the idea that it was named after “a type of railway couplings between wagons”!

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

This charming and well produced leaflet has three suggestions regarding the name.

https://www.testvalley.gov.uk/assets/attach/3788/Sprat-and-Winkle-Line-leaflet-web-180313-.pdf

I think we can reject the idea that it was named after “a type of railway couplings between wagons”!

 

Yes, but why are sprat and winkle couplings so named?

 

I'm not convinced by either of the other two explanations, though I think the first might hold a grain of truth. I'd be pretty sure that smuggling had died out well before the 1860s but would also be sure that the antics of the smugglers were a lively tradition in the area - colourful tales of what granddad got up to in his misspent youth. So I suggest the line acquired its soubriquet because it passed through a district in which the story of smugglers hiding their contraband thus was well-remembered. 

[Liam]

It doesn’t seem that I mentioned it on this thread at the time - last year I ordered from Amazon this wonderful book by Steph Gillett. It starts with several pages about the history of the line, then through pictures it takes you along the full length of the route from Cheltenham to Southampton (and there may be a photo of the dockside station too). Definitely recommend it to anyone who wants to find out more about this incredible line. 
 

[KeithMacdonald]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I'd be pretty sure that smuggling had died out well before the 1860s but would also be sure that the antics of the smugglers were a lively tradition in the area - colourful tales of what granddad got up to in his misspent youth. So I suggest the line acquired its soubriquet because it passed through a district in which the story of smugglers hiding their contraband thus was well-remembered. 

 

Like the Moonrakers in Wiltshire.

 

https://weird-wiltshire.co.uk/2021/09/04/moonrakers-of-wiltshire/

[MrWolf]

Only just found out about this thread and having built this below, I'll be following from now on.

 

 

 

 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

On 05/11/2022 at 10:17, Liam said:

It doesn’t seem that I mentioned it on this thread at the time - last year I ordered from Amazon this wonderful book by Steph Gillett. It starts with several pages about the history of the line, then through pictures it takes you along the full length of the route from Cheltenham to Southampton (and there may be a photo of the dockside station too). Definitely recommend it to anyone who wants to find out more about this incredible line. 
 

I wasn't aware of this book, certainly worth a look I say.

On 05/11/2022 at 15:55, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Like the Moonrakers in Wiltshire.

 

https://weird-wiltshire.co.uk/2021/09/04/moonrakers-of-wiltshire/

The Moonrakers is a charming story, with a lot of fact mixed in.

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Only just found out about this thread and having built this below, I'll be following from now on.

 

 

 

 

Charming model, looks immaculate.

[KeithMacdonald]

I'd just like to thank @CME and Bottlewasher, @Miss Prism, @Halvarras, @billbedford, @TheQ, @Fat Controller, @Oldddudders, @hmrspaul, @LNWR18901910, @Liam, @MarcD, @Compound2632, @BR traction instructor, @wagonman, @DCB, @Welchester, @MrWolf (and everyelse that knows me) for all their contributions to this topic.

 

As a token of my appreciation, here's a copy of something I'd thought I'd lost. Just found while tidying up a photo library from 2004.

 

 

It's a picture of Ogbourne Station, painted by a local person, and given to me to use on the village website that year. IIRC, he'd painted it when young c.1950. The view is from the Up platform, with the signal box. Looking south across at the Down platform, with the Station Master, who seems to be watching the two rail workers. Note the cattle wagon in the small siding, partly obscured by the up signal. Cattle would be driven down the village High Street to be put in the cattle wagon for a trip to Swindon Cattle Market, in Old Town. In the background are the Marlborough Downs, with the ancient Ridgeway path running along the top.

 

[Liam]

1 hour ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I'd just like to thank @CME and Bottlewasher, @Miss Prism, @Halvarras, @billbedford, @TheQ, @Fat Controller, @Oldddudders, @hmrspaul, @LNWR18901910, @Liam, @MarcD, @Compound2632, @BR traction instructor, @wagonman, @DCB, @Welchester, @MrWolf (and everyelse that knows me) for all their contributions to this topic.

 

As a token of my appreciation, here's a copy of something I'd thought I'd lost. Just found while tidying up a photo library from 2004.

 

 

It's a picture of Ogbourne Station, painted by a local person, and given to me to use on the village website that year. IIRC, he'd painted it when young c.1950. The view is from the Up platform, with the signal box. Looking south across at the Down platform, with the Station Master, who seems to be watching the two rail workers. Note the cattle wagon in the small siding, partly obscured by the up signal. Cattle would be driven down the village High Street to be put in the cattle wagon for a trip to Swindon Cattle Market, in Old Town. In the background are the Marlborough Downs, with the ancient Ridgeway path running along the top.

 

The picture and your words sum up a wonderful way of life in England which sadly now only exists in small pocketed areas today.

[MrWolf]

That's a great little painting and I really like the little details that the artist has obviously been interested in such as the design of the signal and the unusual elaborate lamp brackets.

Number 23 has her top coat of paint and transfers now. Rule 1 has seen a favourite loco of mine dodge the cutters torch and still be earning her keep in southwest Shropshire around 1938.

 

 

Reading this thread has inspired me to take another look at some of the other M&SWJR locos and stock.

 

I'm assuming that you are all aware that the 1983 Model Railway Constructor annual contains an article about the unusual water tower at Savernake along with scale drawings and photos?

 

Copies regularly turn up on eBay for not much. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by MrWolf

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I was out volunteering with the Canal and River Trust today and I was helping with a survey of Bruce canal tunnel near where the Savernake railway stations were. Beforehand a very helpful local gave us some historical background.

While the survey was going on we also looked for a second mechanism for feeding water up from the canal to the railway (for the water cranes?). We found one mechanism about 123 metres in from the western end of the tunnel but found no others. Got some close up views of engineering trains when not in the tunnel as the Westbury to Theale part of the Berk and Hants has been closed for engineering works for a few weeks.

 

There was a discussion about the new buildings  blocking the trackbed of the old railways into Marlborough.

 

Feeling a bit nostalgic now, must go and get my rose tinted spectacles.

 

Regards

 

Nik

Edited March 2, 2023 by NIK
Improving grammar.

[Pete Haitch]

On 01/03/2023 at 00:34, MrWolf said:

That's a great little painting and I really like the little details that the artist has obviously been interested in such as the design of the signal and the unusual elaborate lamp brackets.

Number 23 has her top coat of paint and transfers now. Rule 1 has seen a favourite loco of mine dodge the cutters torch and still be earning her keep in southwest Shropshire around 1938.

 

 

Reading this thread has inspired me to take another look at some of the other M&SWJR locos and stock.

 

I'm assuming that you are all aware that the 1983 Model Railway Constructor annual contains an article about the unusual water tower at Savernake along with scale drawings and photos?

 

Copies regularly turn up on eBay for not much. 

If No. 23 is feeling lonely, producing an ex MSWJR road van as absorbed by the GWR is very simple - take an LSWR road van on which they were based, and change the rain strips on the roof and add a central roof support to the open end of the veranda.  More details are on the GW modelling website here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr1.html If one lasted into BR times at Laira, then I'm sure one may well have survived in the Welsh Marches.

 

I used a Kernow models LSWR road van as I came across one 2nd hand (it's still my "2nd most expensive wagon): http://bitly.ws/RNgs 

 

I had been going try the Smallbrook Studios LSWR road van here: http://bitly.ws/RNdT

 

There is a rather spiffing looking kit for the MSWJR van by Pre-grouping Railways  here: http://bitly.ws/RNdI

 

I also wanted to model a couple of the absorbed ex Midland cattle wagons as discussed in this thread: 

The idea is to add extra variety to a train of GW cattle wagons. Unfortunately the only kit I've located that is close is this one : http://bitly.ws/RNjf  I'm not sure that I currently have the construction skills (or budget) to justify what would become my most expensive wagon to date.

 

Below is a picture of my GW (ex MSWJR) van both before and after I tried painting it on too hot a day. Sorry for photographing it with 19th Century rolling stock (iron mex, iron toad, GW Henson Patent van).

 

Pete.

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

On 05/11/2022 at 15:55, KeithMacdonald said:

I'd be pretty sure that smuggling had died out well before the 1860s but would also be sure that the antics of the smugglers were a lively tradition in the area - colourful tales of what granddad got up to in his misspent youth.

 

Most likely, but not too long before. 🙂

 

As reported in the Brighton Gazzette on 4th March 1852. One Gabriel Gillam, a local fisherman, has been up before the beak for smuggling baccy, along with the rest of the crew. Just happened to be Richard Osman's great-great-great-great-grandpa. The fine was paid by the owner of the boat, and the men were liberated.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00183rr/who-do-you-think-you-are-series-19-2-richard-osman?page=1

Fast forward to 29:00

[MrWolf]

4 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

If No. 23 is feeling lonely, producing an ex MSWJR road van as absorbed by the GWR is very simple - take an LSWR road van on which they were based, and change the rain strips on the roof and add a central roof support to the open end of the veranda.  More details are on the GW modelling website here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nomswjr1.html If one lasted into BR times at Laira, then I'm sure one may well have survived in the Welsh Marches.

 

I used a Kernow models LSWR road van as I came across one 2nd hand (it's still my "2nd most expensive wagon): http://bitly.ws/RNgs 

 

I had been going try the Smallbrook Studios LSWR road van here: http://bitly.ws/RNdT

 

There is a rather spiffing looking kit for the MSWJR van by Pre-grouping Railways  here: http://bitly.ws/RNdI

 

I also wanted to model a couple of the absorbed ex Midland cattle wagons as discussed in this thread: 

The idea is to add extra variety to a train of GW cattle wagons. Unfortunately the only kit I've located that is close is this one : http://bitly.ws/RNjf  I'm not sure that I currently have the construction skills (or budget) to justify what would become my most expensive wagon to date.

 

Below is a picture of my GW (ex MSWJR) van both before and after I tried painting it on too hot a day. Sorry for photographing it with 19th Century rolling stock (iron mex, iron toad, GW Henson Patent van).

 

Pete.

 

 

 

Very impressive line up, the MSWJR van looks an easy conversion, no excuse not to! 

I've got the makings of the iron cattle wagon that I ought to put together before too long, as I have a cattle (or rather, sheep) train to put together.

I do like the one off iron Toad, I think that I have seen a sketch of it but IIRC there are no known photographs of it.

I assume that it's two Ratio iron Mink bodies on a Ratio Toad chassis? 

I'd like to see more pictures of that project.

 

In between dozens of other jobs, I've been building one of the MSWJR's ex Midland brake coaches from a cut and shut Tri-ang clerestory brake coach.

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by MrWolf
Picture

[Pete Haitch]

Thanks @MrWolf for kind comments. I feel a bit of a fraud writing about how I built something as I gave up my trainset 55 years ago and have only recently returned to modelling. I have one short section of scenic track to see if I could produce something that I can live with. I also wanted to see if I could find the subjects to interest me and, despite no longer having the steadiness of hand, dexterity or sharpness of eye that once I had; whether I could find the skills to produce models that gave me satisfaction.  Currently the iron brake van (IBV) is in limbo as I decide whether to finish, abandon it or start again from scratch. 

 

The "all about  GWR Iron Minks" certainly states that there was no known photograph of the IBV at the time it was written.  Given that before scrapping in 1936 it spent just over 2 years on the Malmesbury Branch, and the 30 years before at Llantrisant, I cant help thinking thinking there must be a picture of a train in S. Wales or Wiltshire with the IBV at the rear.

 

I had used doors from Parkside iron mink kits for the GW Henson patent wagons and compressor van; and rooves, ends and underframes for the iron cattle trucks below.  Some of unused parts have been set aside for a future project, but this left a pile of chopped up iron mink bits that I wished use.

 

For the IBV , 2 iron mink kits should provide all the body parts.  As you speculated the underframe is a shortened Parkside Toad example. I had planned to try and use the toad buffer beam, buffers and draw gear.  I used parts from a wrecked donor model from the 50p broken bits box on a club's sale stand at a local exhibition.  All that could be recovered were the underframes, brakes, sand boxes and veranda gates.  The remnants of the sides and ends have been set aside for 'improving' some RTR models.

 

 

Originally I constructed some 5 panel sides and very dodgy ends with windows that were too large (and I forgot to partially refill as planned)

 

 and some 

 

I cut a plasticard floor and with the aid of some blue-tac and an accommodation chassis, mocked-up enough of the model to consider whether I was  going in the right direction. A five panel covered section  was clearly out of proportion with the veranda, so a cut and shut was carried out.  The veranda end and sides were fitted and top lip added using some plastic 'angle iron'. The off-cut from the mink end used for the veranda end was further butchered to provide the curved inner-end veranda side supports. The veranda gates from the donor were then fitted along with the sand boxes.

 

 

I bought a batch (with the RTR upgrades in mind) of etched sandbox operating levers and fitted some along with home bodged brake standard. The roof is a cut and shut from two iron mink  ones with the veranda end lined with plasticard planking. The roof supports are brass channel filled with square section styrene. Running boards(?) and tie-bars were added from brass.  The handrails are  a single row as some early toads appear to have been in this form.  The centre lamp brackets are a short length of rivet strip with a hole above for a chopped-down staple to be fitted (idea taken from tool van produced by @chuffinghell & @MrWolf).

 

 

Sorry not more/better pics as these were taken to help me build another, better, version rather than to share.