Southern Region BR Standard 4MT tender engines late crest

[Fredo]

Hi, anyone any ideas where I might be able to find details of when the SR 4MT Tender engines received late BR crests. Thanks Fred 

[The Johnster]

The late (ferret and dartboard) crest was first used on 21/6/1956, displayed on a Britannia, 70016 'Ariel' at Marylebone.  Any locomotive on any region that passed through a paint shop postdating this will have carried the ferret and dartboard symbol; you would need to know the dates individual locos were painted after being overhauled to determine which was the first Standard 4MT 4-6-0 on the Southern to carry it.  I think the SR 4MT 4-6-0s were shopped at Eastleigh. 

 

There was some confusion in the very early days of using this crest, as in order 'look right' the lion faced towards the front of the locomotive on both sides.  As this second totem was registered as an Heraldic Device with the College of Arms (in England, Lyon Court in Scotland), the 'demi lion rampant(!), holding between the paws a silver locomotive wheel' is required to face to the left of the device, and some early examples did not comply with this and had to be altered (as if people running the railway didn't have enough to see to already).  I have no idea if any 75xxx were involved in this.

 

As a rough guidline, the original 1/1/48 instruction on nationalisation was for the regions to paint locomotives in whatever style they had been doing prior to 1/1/48, but with no indication of ownership.  This was superceded 14/1/48 by an instruction to apply the words 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' on the the existing liveries in the style of lettering used prior to 1/1/48 (the WR interpreted this as the 1920 style Egyptian Serif lettering).  On 1/6/48, the new 'standard' liveries were introduced and the 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering was to be in the standard Gill Sans style.  The next change came in September of 1949, when the first crest, the 'unicycling lion' became available.  This lasted until the introduction of the seconed crest, 21/6/56.

[Nick Holliday]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The late (ferret and dartboard) crest was first used on 21/6/1956, displayed on a Britannia, 70016 'Ariel' at Marylebone.  Any locomotive on any region that passed through a paint shop postdating this will have carried the ferret and dartboard symbol; you would need to know the dates individual locos were painted after being overhauled to determine which was the first Standard 4MT 4-6-0 on the Southern to carry it.  I think the SR 4MT 4-6-0s were shopped at Eastleigh. 

 

There was some confusion in the very early days of using this crest, as in order 'look right' the lion faced towards the front of the locomotive on both sides.  As this second totem was registered as an Heraldic Device with the College of Arms (in England, Lyon Court in Scotland), the 'demi lion rampant(!), holding between the paws a silver locomotive wheel' is required to face to the left of the device, and some early examples did not comply with this and had to be altered (as if people running the railway didn't have enough to see to already).  I have no idea if any 75xxx were involved in this.

Although the heraldic complication was noted fairly swiftly BR continued to use right-facing totems for about a year, although that depended on where the painting was carried out.  I doubt if any "wrong" totems were actually changed until the loco was due for its next repaint, as it was hardly a hanging offence.

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The late (ferret and dartboard) crest was first used on 21/6/1956, displayed on a Britannia, 70016 'Ariel' at Marylebone.  Any locomotive on any region that passed through a paint shop postdating this will have carried the ferret and dartboard symbol ....

..... at least in theory. Individual works may well have had stocks of the old transfers to use up !!?!

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

a hanging offence.

More likely beheading at the Tower...

 

Back in 1970, there was a freight train derailment at Caerleon blocking the North to West main line.  Coal wagons had deposited their loads in a farmer's field, and the farmer, reckoning this to be a windfall and thinking he was on to a good thing, refused the allow the breakdown crew access for crane supports and jacks to be used.  The Canton Breakdown Supervisor told him 'you are potentially delaying Her Majesty's Mails, which is treasonable and still a hanging offence, unless you are of the nobility, in which case you may be beheaded'.   It worked, everybody along the line knew that the Cardiff-York TPO passed along it; a brilliant piece of blaggery!

[Marshall5]

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... at least in theory. Individual works may well have had stocks of the old transfers to use up !!?!

Horwich works was still using up the 'old' crests well into mid 1957 on the 76xxx being built there.

Ray.

[justin]

I'm not sure if you are referring to the 2-6-0s, 4-6-0's or possibly both. I doubt there is any definitive source for this information. I would suggest trawling sites like Rail Online or the RCTS photo archive to see what crests appear on locos. Time consuming but probably the best way to answer your question.

[lapford34102]

A fairly wild guess would be around 1960 when Standards moved from SE division to SW div. No hard evidence but early crests on pre 3rd rail Kent lines but don"t recall rhem on SW lines. Wild guess though 

Stu