Beckenham Junction

[phil-b259]

50 minutes ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

What's the "20" at the far end of the platform?

 

A 20mph speed restriction for trains going right (in the direction of the arrow) through the fairly small radius crossovers onto the line towards Lewisham

 

See here https://www.railsigns.uk/sect13page1/sect13page1.html

 

These days the railway uses signs that look like speed limit signs used on roads

 

See here https://www.railsigns.uk/sect13page3/sect13page3.html

 

Of course go back before the 1960s and you didn't generally get speed signage - the railways simply relied on the driver 'knowing the road' as per his responsibility as a driver.

 

 

* NOTE Unlike drivers of motor vehicles before a train driver is permitted to drive a train over a particular piece of line they must have studded it in detail and MUST know the following and be able to recite it without reference to documentation:-

• Where each signal is located.
• Exactly what indications said signals can display and the routes which can be taken from them where junction indicators are fitted.
• What is the maximum permissible speeds for each piece of track including speeds through crossovers
• Where the gradient changes and what that gradient is at any one time
• Where to start breaking for stations
• Where to stop in stations for any given train length
• places where leafall or poor rail conditions are likely in bad weather

 

Any signage is there as a 'backup'  or a reminder and is not intended to instruct the driver like it does on the road network

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by phil-b259

[Mark L Horstead]

I have that site bookmarked already, as it was in another thread here somewhere.

 

I did not take that "20" as a sign, though, so looking therein did not occur to me. All that I've ever seen at that end of the platform in photographs has been some sort of junk, so that was my expectation. And I didn't realize that the bar across the bottom was an arrow.

 

More learning has occurred, thanks.

 

It's the same for engineers (drivers) here, or was, at least. With the distances covered by freight trains today, that may or may not be practicable.

 

 

[hobbyhorse]

7 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

"As you can see..."

 

I wish that I could.

 

I've printed that photograph, full-sized, and can decipher some abbreviations like H(ither) G(ree)n Dep(arture) - or Dep(ot)?, D(ow)n S(i)d(i)ngs, Stew(art) L(a)n(e), etcetera, but...

 

I have no idea what the notations in the first column are, much of the second column baffles me, and the third and fourth appear to be times - arrival in the third and departure in the fourth? What is the significance of the // between what I take to be hour and minutes, and why does that only appear in some?

 

It's probably all obvious to many/most here, but I've waited and waited to see if anybody else asks before I out myself as the dummy and nobody has.

Mark

The first column, PB73 is prepare from birth, RW73 is relieve and work, both ED's . FS is freight shunt. RA is relieved at, in this case Lewisham.

Second column, NX New Cross, Plum Plumstead, BA Bricklayers Arms.

Last two columns, // shows light loco, and F after shows freight.

Hope this is enlightening.

 

Simon

 

[73c]

They were windows at some point, at that size and 'bricked up' using sleepers, you can see the holes where the chairs were screwed to them.

The bar across, I'm going to guess at being some angle iron, with long bolts going thro' to inside and nutted. Possibly find the same on the inside, the sleepers being pinched between the 2 and would stop them from falling over and anyone trying to get in. If there were windows the other side, then yes, they may have done the same set up.

The mortar is a different colour, possibly from being re pointed and so it's newer.

On the roof, it looks like a large tarp covering to stop pigeons and other crap getting in and blocking the 'out' pipe.

The ladder has a brace to stop it flexing when climbing up.

The 'Grave stones' look like the bases the S&T use for point rodding.

If you want, it may be possible to scratch build one, using an old Wills Finecast loco shed (CK12 ) that will have the arched windows, window frames etc.

Think they also do pack of arches and window frames separately. The LCC kit looks good and is probably easier and quicker.

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 

What's the "20" at the far end of the platform?

Speed limit for the junction - the arrow below shows that it only applies in that direction and not straight ahead.

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

....... What are the gravestone-like things stacked to the right of the oil drums? .....

Close ........ not quite gravestones but - in my experience - they were known as "monuments" !  The concrete object you see ( cruciform in plan ) had part of an old fishplate cast into it so the end was slightly proud at the top ; this had a conspicuous groove across the middle so when the whole thing was buried in the ballast it showed exactly where the centre of the four-foot should be ....... the track might move over time but the monument won't. 

[Mark L Horstead]

7 hours ago, hobbyhorse said:

Mark

The first column, PB73 is prepare from birth, RW73 is relieve and work, both ED's . FS is freight shunt. RA is relieved at, in this case Lewisham.

Second column, NX New Cross, Plum Plumstead, BA Bricklayers Arms.

Last two columns, // shows light loco, and F after shows freight.

Hope this is enlightening.

 

Simon

 

Thanks, Simon

 

I've a lot of running around to do this weekend but I shall study this as I find some breaks. Expect some more questions, but hopefully they will eventually taper off.

 

I am fascinated by all of these details.

 

There is a story behind everything, no matter how seemingly trivial, that few even consider. I like to know them.

[Mark L Horstead]

6 hours ago, 73c said:

They were windows at some point, at that size and 'bricked up' using sleepers, you can see the holes where the chairs were screwed to them.

The bar across, I'm going to guess at being some angle iron, with long bolts going thro' to inside and nutted. Possibly find the same on the inside, the sleepers being pinched between the 2 and would stop them from falling over and anyone trying to get in. If there were windows the other side, then yes, they may have done the same set up.

The mortar is a different colour, possibly from being re pointed and so it's newer.

On the roof, it looks like a large tarp covering to stop pigeons and other crap getting in and blocking the 'out' pipe.

The ladder has a brace to stop it flexing when climbing up.

The 'Grave stones' look like the bases the S&T use for point rodding.

If you want, it may be possible to scratch build one, using an old Wills Finecast loco shed (CK12 ) that will have the arched windows, window frames etc.

Think they also do pack of arches and window frames separately. The LCC kit looks good and is probably easier and quicker.

This is one of the most interesting posts - I could not pick a single most interesting one and every contributor here deserves a first prize - in this thread. So many little gems of information.

 

I had interpreted the chair holes as bolt heads. This explanation is much more delightful. I presume that this would have been done not long after steam locomotives ceased stopping here and requiring water, so before my chosen (and slightly revised) earlies date of 1961ish. I hope so, because I want to depict it thus.

 

Would identical windows on both sides be normal, just in case a photograph of the other side does not turn up? I shall have to model it that way anyway, because the north side will not be easily seen on the layout.

 

I'll have to hunt around online for photographs of the tops of such structures, but some sort of tarp-like covering might well suffice.

 

So the ladder was fixed, then. I don't remember ever seeing fixed ladders that were anything other than vertical.

 

Thanks for the Wills tip. I'll look at those items.

[Mark L Horstead]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Close ........ not quite gravestones but - in my experience - they were known as "monuments" !  The concrete object you see ( cruciform in plan ) had part of an old fishplate cast into it so the end was slightly proud at the top ; this had a conspicuous groove across the middle so when the whole thing was buried in the ballast it showed exactly where the centre of the four-foot should be ....... the track might move over time but the monument won't. 

Would they be visible when in place? Would the fishplate be embedded just as a marker or to increase weight? If just as a marker, why would not something simpler/lighter suffice, like grooves cast into the concrete? How far apart and/or where would they likely have been laid (curves)? If track was seen to have shifted, would the shift have been corrected, or speed restrictions have been imposed etcetera? What is the velocity of an unladen...?

 

It is not my intent to penalize answers with more questions, but I cannot help it. I can have a voracious appetite for such details.

 

Like shunting moves from long ago.

[Wickham Green too]

They certainly would have been visible when in-situ ..... I have no doubt there are people watching who could give you chapter and verse, but I'd guess the top would have been at or about sleeper level ( having tripped over a few in the past, that's my impression anyway ). The use of a metal insert would have been to permit a finer groove than available with concrete. Monuments would generally have been used on curves - though I guess anywhere else with a history of movement might hae beem marked ...... the alignment would have been checked and corrected by slewing by hand in the early days - perhaps, later, by the earlier generations of Liners / Tamper/Liners before someone came up with the 'bright' idea of lasers. ( Hopefully any misalignment would be spotted by the local Ganger before it was bad enough to necessitate a speed restriction.)

[Mark L Horstead]

Thanks again.

 

"Generally have been used on curves" - all/most/some curves, particularly high-speed and/or tight radius curves?

 

I'm particularly curious about the split on either side of the signal box, as there won't be any other curves in view.

 

Modelling track accurately appeals to me - it's often overlooked. I want fishplates everywhere where they should be and cables to third rails and junk/abandoned newspapers and any details that can be added to points. I've yet to begin research into the latter.

[Mark L Horstead]

Greetings, All

 

I've had a busy couple of weeks - which has given all of you knowledgeable and helpful chaps a bit of a (probably-most-welcome) break.

 

I received my green Bachmann 4CEP and Hornby Golden Arrow Pullman set yesterday evening via Evil Bay. I've yet to have time to look at them properly, but will do so this weekend (Victoria Day Monday adds an extra day). I also need to review all previous responses to extract and catalogue every bit of useful information.

 

There are still a few things bobbing around the North Atlantic or sitting in a container at the bottom of the tallest stack in a port. Eventually...

[Mark L Horstead]

My Stewart Lane book arrived on Friday afternoon and William Shakespeare arrived today. I am pleased with both.

 

Unfortunately, from the modelling perspective, I had a much busier weekend than expected, so nothing has come out of its box yet.

 

I've only had time to flip through Stewarts Lane a couple of times. It's not quite what I envisioned, as most of the photographs are locomotive- rather than facility-focussed. That's not an expression of disappointment at all. There are plenty of photographs from which I can extract many useful details. Unfortunately for you lot, that probably means more questions but there likely won't be too many for a while as I have much to digest still.

 

It is especially nice to have colour photographs for weathering purposes.

 

I am going to need photographs of the eastern entrance to the Penge tunnel and overpasses, and I do not think that those will be easy to come by. I'm considering looking for a drone service to get some video. I am thinking of starting at that end, for simplicity.

 

Depending upon cost, I may go for roof-top footage of the Beckenham Junction station buildings as well.

 

There are a few more books to come, yet, and more on my list to order. The only remaining model still to come, I think, is my pillbox brake van. I do not plan to order any more models for a while unless I spot something rare that I want, with the exception of the Bachmann 4BEP in blue/grey when it appears. I am planning an order for Replica 4EPB parts, but am in no rush for those (but probably should be in case those all disappear unexpectedly).

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

..... I am going to need photographs of the eastern entrance to the Penge tunnel and overpasses, ......

Presumably you have a copy of the Middleton Press 'Victoria to Bromley' ..... the WEST end of the tunnel is clearly shown ( plate 80 ) and the east end's probably just the same - though hidden beneath the Brighton Line and C.P. loop bridges ( plate 87 ).

[73c]

Not a lot to see at the other end, quite plain and obscured by the bridges.

[Mark L Horstead]

I'll have to check my book list tonight. I may or may not have it, or it may or may not be on my acquisition list. If not and not, I'll hunt a copy down. Thanks for the tip. There was a photograph of the other end in the Stewarts Lane book.

 

Plain is fine. I just want to be as accurate as possible, even if nobody but me knows. I'm interested in the bridges as well, as the combination would be a very effective scenic break and also help to illustrate how complex the rail network is.

 

I copied some sort of 2/4EPB train simulator video from Youtube (I think) a couple of years ago, from London to Beckenham Junction. I may be able to talk the channel owner into doing the reverse trip, if he hasn't already - I don't think that I ever looked.

 

I'll eventually learn where to look for what...

 

Penge Tunnel

Edited May 26, 2021 by Mark L Horstead
Found some photographs.

[73c]

Shot of a 'Tractor' leaving the Penge East end, be quick on the pause button for a fairly clear view.

 

 

[73c]

Also search Penge Railway Tunnel, might get better hits.

[73c]

Maybe of use?

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/network-rail/stations/beckenham-junction-station/ser-roofing-new-platforms-beckenham-junction-n-15313496.html?prodid=676

 

https://nr.printstoreonline.com/stations/beckenham-junction-station/british-railways-southern-region-beckenham-15313488.html#modalClose

 

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/network-rail/stations/beckenham-junction-station/sz7090268-15313492.html?prodid=85249

Edited May 26, 2021 by 73c
Additional links.

[Mark L Horstead]

You, Sir, are worth far more than I am paying you.

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Mark L Horstead said:

 ....... I'm interested in the bridges as well, as the combination would be a very effective scenic break .....

Yeah - why not avoid the bus on a bridge cliché .......... a twelve-car PUL/PAN set should fit the bill instead ( with 8SUB on the loop ). 

[Mark L Horstead]

There's got to be a more compact cliche around. I'm planning minimum width for this bit.

[Mark L Horstead]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably you have a copy of the Middleton Press 'Victoria to Bromley' ..... the WEST end of the tunnel is clearly shown ( plate 80 ) and the east end's probably just the same - though hidden beneath the Brighton Line and C.P. loop bridges ( plate 87 ).

No, I don't have that one yet, but it's now on my list. 

 

I have Clapham Jn to Beckenham Jn by V Mitchell and K Smith, but may have seen Victoria to Bromley online somewhere.

 

I have four Crowood Press books on the way, and a couple of dozen other books on my list.

[Mark L Horstead]

My Bachmann Pillbox Brake Van and Moving the Goods 3 Coal - Energy for the Nation arrived today.  I have a couple more Moving the Goods volumes enroute as well.

 

I was looking through the Stewarts Lane book again and noticed a colour photograph of the Shortlands signal box on page 22, That's the one most similar to the Beckenham Junction box that I've seen so far, so I went looking for more photographs and found some, including one that I just ordered from HRMS. Brick and blue panel colours match my memory.