Barry to Llandrindod Wells service

[Captain Kernow]

In the John Hodge Barry Railway book (Pen & Sword Publications), there is a reference to a GWR service that ran in the 1930s from Barry to Llandrindod Wells, running via Merthyr.

 

Whilst I understand the route the train would take from Barry as far as Merthyr, I am a bit puzzled as to which way it would have gone after that.

 

Would it have run north from Merthyr to Three Cocks Jct and thence to Builth Road and make an awkward shunt from the Low Level station to the LMS line via the connecting line?

 

Or would it have taken the other route at Three Cocks and proceeded to Hereford and then north to Craven Arms, reverse and then down to Llandrindod Wells?

 

Many thanks.

 

 

 

Question also posted in the Welsh Area Group section.

 

[John-Miles]

Builth Wells , shunt at Builth Road, was the chosen route. Fewer LMS miles? Either way would have been stunning.

Edited May 11, 2021 by John-Miles
typo

[Captain Kernow]

Thanks John, that makes sense.

 

The photo in the book shows the train being worked by a 39XX inside cylindered 2-6-2T. That's not a prototype you see modelled that often.

 

[The Stationmaster]

Summer 1929 Service the train ran on Mondays and Saturdays only (24 August excepted) between 28 July and 22 September.  11.15 from Barry arriving Llandrindod Wells 15.03.  The return working left Llandrindod Wells at 16.20 and arrived Barry at 20.00.  The  train called at Talgarth and Builth Wells, as well as Builth Road, in both directions plus having a wide range of connections over much of South, Mid , and North, Wales.

 

In the winter of 1929 it was jusr a connection via Builth Road.  

 

It was still running in the Summer STT for 1938 but is only shown as SO, I have no sources to hand to give any indication of when the Monday working ceased.

Edited May 11, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Ian Hargrave]

Odd isn’t it,the fashionable holiday resorts of that era. Especially leaving a popular seaside resort for the austerity of a Mid Wales spa to take the waters. A long time on a train and probably without benefit of toilet facilities.I imagine station stops would have taken that into account. Would the journey have commenced via Wenvoe and Pontypridd.?

That route before closure was once the excursion way to the pleasures ( ? ) of Barry Island in the opposite direction.

 

Another holiday special of that and even later era was the service that ran from the Rhondda via The Tunnel & ex RSB to Neath,Swansea and Carmarthen,then on to Aberystwyth. I believe it ran to sub 125 timing 

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Odd isn’t it,the fashionable holiday resorts of that era. Especially leaving a popular seaside resort for the austerity of a Mid Wales spa to take the waters. A long time on a train and probably without benefit of toilet facilities.I imagine station stops would have taken that into account. Would the journey have commenced via Wenvoe and Pontypridd.?

That route before closure was once the excursion way to the pleasures ( ? ) of Barry Island in the opposite direction.

 

Another holiday special of that and even later era was the service that ran from the Rhondda via The Tunnel & ex RSB to Neath,Swansea and Carmarthen,then on to Aberystwyth. I believe it ran to sub 125 timing 

The 1929 Public book shows a Cardiff departure time and without checking the times that would seem to tie in with the train running that way.  The return working time at Cardiff definitely indicates that it was routed that way.

[Ian Hargrave]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The 1929 Public book shows a Cardiff departure time and without checking the times that would seem to tie in with the train running that way.  The return working time at Cardiff definitely indicates that it was routed that way.

Now presumably that way to collect the good citizens of that city on their way to their annual purge and presumably all stations up the Taff Valley.Definitely not the direct route then.

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks John, that makes sense.

 

The photo in the book shows the train being worked by a 39XX inside cylindered 2-6-2T. That's not a prototype you see modelled that often.

 

I’d have expected a Dean Goods north of Merthyr.  Route seems to have been Barry-Cardiff-Merthyr (reverse)-Three Cocks-Builth Road and presumably LMS hauled to Llandrindod Wells. 

[Captain Kernow]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’d have expected a Dean Goods north of Merthyr.  Route seems to have been Barry-Cardiff-Merthyr (reverse)-Three Cocks-Builth Road and presumably LMS hauled to Llandrindod Wells. 

So would the Dean Goods have run round at Builth Road LL, prior to propelling the train to the north end of the connecting line and then hauling back towards the LNWR line and Llandrindod Wells or would perhaps another loco have been provided to attach to the rear at the Low Level station, prior to the movement onto the Central Wales line being made, with the Dean Goods being detached at Low Level and then having a quick service, prior to working back to Merthyr a bit later?

 

[The Stationmaster]

Right sir - get what you an out of this, using the 1938 times.

 

Builth Wells 14.35. x 14.41

Builth Road  14x44. 14V46

 

Note V reads -

Builth Road GWR Jcn  14.50. 14.55

LMS No 2 Signalbox.  15.00. 15.02

Llandrindod Wells        15.14

GW Engine works through to Llandrindod Wells

 

The allowances are little different for the return train which tends to suggest that the train might well have been propelled over the connecting line between the two companies at Builth Road.  Presumably the engine returned to Builth Road in order to turn prior to working back southwards.  alternatively a local engine might have been attached on teh other end of teh train for the move over the connecting line but there is nothing to indicate that in the STT.

 

Incidentally another interesting thing in the 1938 STT is that is shows the Tteherbert - Aberystwyth train running via the Mid Wales Line and Moat Lane.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[The Johnster]

I couldn’t say, mon captain, but there would have been an arrangement and set practice covering the move.  As it was with a passenger carrying train, and the transfer sidings were effectively a double ended goods yard, it may have been necessary to clip and spike any facing turnouts it had to traverse.  There was, TTBOMK, never a running line connection between the GW Mid Wales and LMS Central Wales routes at Builth Road. 

[br2975]

19 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally another interesting thing in the 1938 STT is that is shows the Tteherbert - Aberystwyth train running via the Mid Wales Line and Moat Lane.

 

Any idea if this runs Fridays Mike ?

.

Travelling to Aberwristwatch and Borth at the end of this month, for a first ride on the VoR since 1972 and I wonder if could use my TfW 'wrinkly' pass north of Tre-sherbert  ?

 

 

.

We can but dream.

Edited May 12, 2021 by br2975

[The Stationmaster]

10 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I couldn’t say, mon captain, but there would have been an arrangement and set practice covering the move.  As it was with a passenger carrying train, and the transfer sidings were effectively a double ended goods yard, it may have been necessary to clip and spike any facing turnouts it had to traverse.  There was, TTBOMK, never a running line connection between the GW Mid Wales and LMS Central Wales routes at Builth Road. 

Any hand points would very obviously have to be clipped and scotched (but not spiked - they were hardly being taken out of use ).  interestingly the connecting point for running onto the link line at the GWR end had a facing point lock but the LMS end exit point didn't have one.  But basically it was fairly simple every day railway work and no different from anywhere else where passenger trains were occasionally worked over lines which did not have full block working in force.

[The Stationmaster]

3 minutes ago, br2975 said:

 

Any idea if this runs Fridays Mike ?

.

Travelling to Aberwristwatch and Borth at the end of this month, for a first ride on the VoR since 1972 and I wonder if could use my TfW 'wrinkly' pass north of Tre-sherbert  ?

 

 

.

We can but dream.

Alas one we can only dream about Brian.  However from what I have been toold in the past provided you allow a couple of days for the journey (each way) you might be able to do it on your 'bus pass if you have one.  I think the VoR has changed a bit since I last travelled on it as back then the engines had only just gained fully lined green livery and the stock was recently repainted in chocolate & cream.  And of course you had to first pass the initiative test of making you way to the VoR station  - now where did I put the transparencies (albeit somewhat under exposed)?

[br2975]

13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Alas one we can only dream about Brian.  However from what I have been toold in the past provided you allow a couple of days for the journey (each way) you might be able to do it on your 'bus pass if you have one.  I think the VoR has changed a bit since I last travelled on it as back then the engines had only just gained fully lined green livery and the stock was recently repainted in chocolate & cream.  And of course you had to first pass the initiative test of making you way to the VoR station  - now where did I put the transparencies (albeit somewhat under exposed)?

My last trip on the VoR was during the 1971 or 1972 University of Wales 'Rag Week'  and in the wilds above Aberffrwd our train ground to a halt as the way was blocked by a 'large' tree trunk placed across the 'two foot'.

.

The crew got out to remove the obstruction only to be set upon by whooping 'red indian' savages from the 'UCWA' tribe, who held the train and its passengers to ransom, until sufficient charitable donations secured our release.

.

Methinks student values have changed somewhat during the intervening fifty years, I'm unaware as to the existence of 'rag weeks' now, the jokes we once tittered at in Uni 'rag mags' would now be considered 'grossly offensive' and as for students 'redding up' and donning a feathered war bonnet...................................

.

Meanwhile, back in the real world.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right sir - get what you an out of this, using the 1938 times.

 

Builth Wells 14.35. x 14.41

Builth Road  14x44. 14V46

 

Note V reads -

Builth Road GWR Jcn  14.50. 14.55

LMS No 2 Signalbox.  15.00. 15.02

Llandrindod Wells        15.14

GW Engine works through to Llandrindod Wells

 

The allowances are little different for the return train which tends to suggest that the train might well have been propelled over the connecting line between the two companies at Builth Road.  Presumably the engine returned to Builth Road in order to turn prior to working back southwards.  alternatively a local engine might have been attached on teh other end of teh train for the move over the connecting line but there is nothing to indicate that in the STT.

 

Incidentally another interesting thing in the 1938 STT is that is shows the Tteherbert - Aberystwyth train running via the Mid Wales Line and Moat Lane.

 

 

 

The routing of this train in its early stages had me scratching my cranium for a bit.....but I think it would be via the tunnel & R&SB to the S W mainline thence to Neath to connect with the branch to Brecon & onwards via Three Cocks to Moat Lane. .?

 

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

The routing of this train in its early stages had me scratching my cranium for a bit.....but I think it would be via the tunnel & R&SB to the S W mainline thence to Neath to connect with the branch to Brecon & onwards via Three Cocks to Moat Lane. .?

 

When you say the tunnel, you mean the Rhondda Tunnel, Ian? Bit of a long way round to go via Neath, perhaps?

 

[Ian Hargrave]

No actually not .Short distance through the Rhondda Tunnel to what in those days was known as Aberavon,now better known as Port Talbot and a mere few miles to Neath and onwards in Welsh clumsy rail links via the Neath & Brecon line which is...excuse the indulgence...within my withered memory towards the Mid Wales railway spine that ran ( If you were ever lucky enough to actually to visual proof of its existence) from Three Cocks junction via,Rhayader) to Moat Lane on the Cambrian main line.All downhill from there. You have to ask yourself why bother ? 
Spend your holiday recovering from the journey and building strength for the rigours of the return journey only to eagerly anticipate next year. The A 470 is no substitute but not nearly as much fun.

 

[The Stationmaster]

The 1929  public book shows the train starting from Cardiff Queen Street and leaving Treherbert at 09.20 - then through the tunnel and via Aberavon Town, Briton Ferry East, Court Sart, Llanelly, Carmarthen, and Newcastle Emlyn.  So basically via the RS&B then onto the Swansea District Line thence to Carmarthen - Treherbert to Aberystwyth in 5 hours and head on all the way with no reversals at al.

 

Somewhat different on 1938 when in fact there were two so trains that summer.  There was a Cardiff Queen St - Aberystwyth via Treherbert leaving Cardiff just after 10.00 and. a separate 10.00 ex Treherbert which on further digging I find in fact terminated at Moat Lane and which reversed at Pontypridd and Merthyr en-route thence via Talyllyn Loop arriving Moat Lane at 14,34.

 

The more you dig the more interestng it gets  as delving through a past WRRC publcation is revealing.  Prior to the Great War it appears the Aberystwyth service commenced in probably 1891 with portions from Cardiff and Nepowrt wihich joined at Pontsticill..  At some time there was either additionally, or instead of the original working, two trains which started from Cardiff and Treherbert respectively and which then joined at Pontypridd but it is unclear whether or not there was also a Newport portion.   Clearly by 1929, according to the GWR public book, the Cardiff/Treherbert train was running via the RS&B  butd it is unclear if therer was still a train, or portion . from Newport.  The service via Merthyr had still been  running in 1922.

 

according the WRRC the Barry - Llandrindod Wells service began in 1924 and, like the other service, ceased in 1939.

 

[The Johnster]

ISTR reading somewhere that there was a pre-WW1 through coach from Cardiff-Aberystwyth via THT, R&SB and Carmarthen which started from Bute Road. 

[John-Miles]

There was also a through carriage from Hereford to Aberystwyth at various times. Obviously via Three Cocks and Moat Lane.

[John-Miles]

I can add one more service - but I have never seen any documentary evidence to support this. I am told there was a through Midland carriage from Swansea to Aberystwyth via Three Cocks and Moat Lane. If anybody has proof of this, I would be very interested.

[The Stationmaster]

Having yesterday added the OPC reprint of Cambrian Summer 1904 Public and Working Timetables to my 'archive' some other interesting things emerge 

 

The through coach from Hereford (dep 12.45) to Aberystwyth in that year went forward from Three cCocks in the 13,20 ex Brecon to Moat Lane (arr 15.56 but the return working at 09.35 from Aberystwyth attached to the South wales Expressl and presumably detacj hed at thtree Cocks although taht train only madea brief stop there.

 

No trace of any through coach fom Swansea by either the Mid or LNWR routes.

 

As afar as south wwales working were concerned the South Wales Express ran through in both direction between Cardiff and Aberystwyth 9obviously reversng at Merthyr and Moat lane but the Taff vale Express appears not to have gone beyond Moat Lane and didn't convey any through coaches for stations beyond Moat Lane.

[CEINEWYDD]

My dad used to travel from home in Treorchy, to boarding school in Towyn in the 1930's. From memory he said the route was Pontypridd,  Merthyr, Brecon,  Three Cocks, Llandidlydoes, Moat Lane, Dovey  junction, Aberdovey.  He claimed that because of the number of passengers for this service (and the return at term end) they had a coach attached to normal service trains.  Anyone any idea if my memories of his tales are plausible ?  (In the late 1950's my elder sister was inflicted with the same school, but those journeys definitely did NOT have special coaches attached, so had to change trains at various places.)    

 

[corneliuslundie]

Second hand but I was told recently that in early BR days there was a through service via Carmarthen to Butlins at Pwllheli (well Penychain to be precise). It ended when the LMR took over the Cambrian.

Jonathan