Prototype practice in Lampeter

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Is the 'warehouse' building the creamery, perhaps?

The original creamery was at the Old quarry in North Road established there in 1903/04  by a farmers co-operative.  Some way from the goods yard

[ejstubbs]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I don't know if this will add anything to Mike's excellent explanations but Lampeter itself is featured in vol 1 of the OPC published "Great Western Stations, Layouts and Illustratons" by  R.C. Clark.

 

As mentioned by Harlequin in the seventh post of this thread, and referenced in the subsequent discussion of the location of the connection to the goods yard and its implications for the signalling and pointwork.

 

Sometimes it does pay to read the thread from the beginning.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

As mentioned by Harlequin in the seventh post of this thread, and referenced in the subsequent discussion of the location of the connection to the goods yard and its implications for the signalling and pointwork.

 

Sometimes it does pay to read the thread from the beginning.

Yes, I missed that particular reference  while reading through the thread before writing that description. I nevertheless felt that a fuller description and the offer of a PM scan would still be useful for those without access to Clark. Studying the topographical plan certainly helped me to appreciate the rather odd layout of Lampeter.

Clark's topographical plan indicates that the loop points at its northern end were followed almost immediately by the points for the goods yard so were these just beyond the limit for control from the signal box?

 

The other thing I found odd was the location of the cattle pens and siding on the other side of the running lines from the goods yard and only accessible via the crossing (the road beyond the crossing to the east was a steep track leading only to the Cwm-Rhys quarry) 

It's frustrating that the 25" OS maps aren't available on NLS but, though the post-war six inch map doesn't show  the track layout in any detail, it does show the general layout of the station. 

I've highlighted the area of the upside yard and the position of the cattle pens and the narrow platform extending beyond them (used for milk traffic?)  shown on Clark's topographical plan. Beyond the platform there was a fence between the far end of the siding and the yard.   

 

 

Though cattle pens were often, for fairly obvious reasons, separated to some extent from the rest of the goods yard, such a complete separation as this was unusual for a fairly small station  and presumably reflected the importance of livestock traffic . Lampeter had eight fairs including a horse fair each year as well as its weekly market and still has annual agricultural show. It would certainly affect the balance of wagons. Could the need to run loaded livestock (and perhaps milk) trains straight onto the up line with no further shunting also have been a factor? 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Pacific231G

[Nevermakeit]

On 07/06/2021 at 12:05, The Stationmaster said:

Using the example I've linked above we;ll now look at w WTT to see what t sort of information they were providing at the time this particular one was published.  It is important to know that the ampount of information shown in an STT/WTT varied between the Companies/BR Regions and it was also gradually reduced over the years as a lot of the things you will find listed below were gradually transferred to other publications.  When I completely revised the method of publishing WR Freight WTTs in the early 1990s the only things which remained compared with earlier one such as this were the explanatory notes and the actual tabular pages for train times - by then everything else had already been taken out of the WTTs   and I also drastically altered the area each book covered as well as changing over to discontinuing supplements and simple reissuing the WTTs every 8 weeks - having them printed on a copying machine instead of going out to a printer - they were simply folded sheets of A4 paper stapled together.

 

So I see from the timetable you mention that the 05.10 from Carmarthen Junction to Lampeter returns from Lampeter to Carmarthen Junction as the 09.15.  Is it likely that it would be the same engine (and crew?) working this each day?  Would it also be the same locomotive (although presumably a different crew, given your comments about the working hours?) taking the 12.15 Carmarthen Junction to Lampeter, returning as the 5pm Lampeter to Carmarthen Junction?

 

Thanks.

[Harlequin]

Hi Mike @The Stationmaster,

 

I was wondering how the milk traffic from the Aberayron branch would have been exchanged with the trains to Carmarthen and what role the Up siding might have played in that?

 

Obviously it would be organised to minimise any delays and get the milk to the city (Cardiff? London?) as quickly as possible. So I imagine that the branch goods would be timed to arrive at Lampeter just before one of the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen trains was scheduled to come through. Thus, the branch loco would be available for shunting.

 

Would the branch loco cut out the full milk vehicles (tankers or in earlier times Siphons, I guess) from the branch goods and wait in the Goods yard or the Up siding? In the Up siding it would be trapped behind the milk vehicles and with the passenger train stopping at the Up platform that leaves very little flexibility, very little room for manoeuvre. Or would it wait in the goods yard, then when the passenger train arrives haul the milk vehicles out and propel them up to the rear of the passenger train?

 

(I discount the possibility that the passenger train would stop in the Up platform and then reverse into the Up siding while passengers were on board to pick up milk vehicles. Too slow, too dangerous. Am I right?)

 

So I'm starting to think that the Up siding plays no role in the Up milk traffic flow and is in fact more useful for holding empties that the branch goods will pickup and haul down the branch to the Creamery.

 

And a secondary question, if I may: I don't see any calling on signals so how would the attaching of milk vehicles to through trains have been controlled? Flags and whistles, no doubt, but which staff would be involved?

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Nevermakeit]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Mike @The Stationmaster,

 

I was wondering how the milk traffic from the Aberayron branch would have been exchanged with the trains to Carmarthen and what role the Up siding might have played in that?

 

Obviously it would be organised to minimise any delays and get the milk to the city (Cardiff? London?) as quickly as possible. So I imagine that the branch goods would be timed to arrive at Lampeter just before one of the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen trains was scheduled to come through. Thus, the branch loco would be available for shunting.

 

Would the branch loco cut out the full milk vehicles (tankers or in earlier times Siphons, I guess) from the branch goods and waited in the Goods yard or the Up siding? In the Up siding it would be trapped behind the milk vehicles and with the passenger train stopping at the Up platform that leaves very little flexibility, very little room for manoeuvre. Or would it wait in the goods yard, then when the passenger train arrives haul the milk vehicles out and propel them up to the rear of the passenger train?

 

(I discount the possibility that the passenger train would stop in the Up platform and then reverse into the Up siding while passengers were on board to pick up milk vehicles. Too slow, too dangerous. Am I right?)

 

So I'm starting to think that the Up siding plays no role in the Up milk traffic flow and is in fact more useful for holding empties that the branch goods will pickup and haul down the branch to the Creamery.

 

And a secondary question, if I may: I don't see any calling on signals so how would the attaching of milk vehicles to through trains have been controlled? Flags and whistles, no doubt, but which staff would be involved?

 

I seem to remember seeing a photo somewhere with a caption that suggested the whole milk train, including the engine, hooked up behind the passenger loco and they all went off to Carmarthen together. Is that a likely scenario? 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Mike @The Stationmaster,

 

I was wondering how the milk traffic from the Aberayron branch would have been exchanged with the trains to Carmarthen and what role the Up siding might have played in that?

 

Obviously it would be organised to minimise any delays and get the milk to the city (Cardiff? London?) as quickly as possible. So I imagine that the branch goods would be timed to arrive at Lampeter just before one of the Aberystwyth-Carmarthen trains was scheduled to come through. Thus, the branch loco would be available for shunting.

 

Would the branch loco cut out the full milk vehicles (tankers or in earlier times Siphons, I guess) from the branch goods and waited in the Goods yard or the Up siding? In the Up siding it would be trapped behind the milk vehicles and with the passenger train stopping at the Up platform that leaves very little flexibility, very little room for manoeuvre. Or would it wait in the goods yard, then when the passenger train arrives haul the milk vehicles out and propel them up to the rear of the passenger train?

 

(I discount the possibility that the passenger train would stop in the Up platform and then reverse into the Up siding while passengers were on board to pick up milk vehicles. Too slow, too dangerous. Am I right?)

 

So I'm starting to think that the Up siding plays no role in the Up milk traffic flow and is in fact more useful for holding empties that the branch goods will pickup and haul down the branch to the Creamery.

 

And a secondary question, if I may: I don't see any calling on signals so how would the attaching of milk vehicles to through trains have been controlled? Flags and whistles, no doubt, but which staff would be involved?

 

Looking at the permitted passenger loads between Lampeter and Carmarthen a 78XX was allowed 240 tons and a 2251 was allowed 192 tons while a loaded Milk Tank was 28 tons.  As most of the passenger trains by the 1960s only loaded to 2, or occasionally 3, vehicles there was plenty of tonnage still available for milk tanks on 78XX worked train.  (5 Miltas would be 140 tons so a 2 coach train could easily take that many or more).

 

The logical way to attach the Miltas to a train would be for the train to shunt into the Up Siding to attach, perfectly legitimate move from an operational safety viewpoint as the points into and out that siding were detected by ground discs.  However the pretty substantial looking loading bank came quite near to the trap point and I suspect that passenger vehicles might possible have been out of gauge and an outside cylinder engine would definitely have been out of gauge so 78XX were probably prohibited from entering the siding.

 

As the branch engine would appear to have spent part of the day at Lampeter/working branch trips it seems to be more than likely likely that it would have been used to tail passenger trains in order to attach the Miltas.   But that engine returned to Carmarthen in the early afternoon  although after that no more milk would have come from Felin Fach anyway as I doubt (before the service ended) that the branch passenger train was used to shunt the creamery).   There was a ground disc reading from the Up Siding (to the Up Loop) so it would have been used to signal that the route was set however the actual movement would have been under the control of a Shunter (or a member of staff qualified to perform shunting work such as the Branch Guard) while the passenger train Guard train would help control the movement (by handsignals) as it neared the rear of his train ready to attach.   Not the most economic way of doing the job but the branch engine was there, or could be there, as were staff who worked the branch trip so that would most likely be officially how it was done.  What sometimes happened in reality might well be lost in the mists of time

 

I discount the idea of the Miltas being shunted from elsewhere for several reasons.  Firstly the quickest and easiest move by far would be from the Up Siding.  And secondly there is photographic evidence that the branch engine spent time in that siding - for whatever reason.  finally carrying out shunting moves from the goods. yard would interfere with work being carried out there to load or unload vehicles probably with road vehocles and/or trailers being moved around.

 

26 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

I seem to remember seeing a photo somewhere with a caption that suggested the whole milk train, including the engine, hooked up behind the passenger loco and they all went off to Carmarthen together. Is that a likely scenario? 

If it was it was certainly a very unofficial and dangerous way of doing things.  sounds to me ore likely that somebody saw the branch engine attaching vehicles to a passenger train and drew an extended conclusion.   Assistance in the rear would not have been permitted between Lampeter and Carmarthen so if the branch engine went attached to a passenger train it would be attached front inside the train engine.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Whilst I'm her I have been doing some photo delving online and it has revealeda number of things (not that any of the photis can be posted here because of copyright situations.

 

1, Assuming a particular photo is correctly dated the GWR signal box was present in 1914.   (And I have received something from 'Harlequin' which seems to indicate that it was most likely provided in that year).   the signal box is also visible in the 1914 film linked belowe.

  

2. There is clear photographic evidence that at the time of things such as horse fairs in Lampeter Pre WWI animals were loaded/unloaded at the Down platform.  This doesn't surprise me as it was far from unknown for horses, in particular, to be loaded/i unloaded at station platforms at smaller stations.  But the photos also recvealed something - the large building immediately south west of the station building on the 1889 and later maps was open sided and appears to have had internal arrangements for keeping a considerable number of animals - it can be seen near the beginning of the film linked below.   In addition photos indicate that arrangements were made to pen horses adjacent to the main, Down side, station building.

 

3.   A bit more delving online has revealed this fantastic film  of the 1914 Dalis Horse Fair held in Lampeter in early May that year.  Among other things it shows the new signalling clearly in use, horses being loaded at the Down platforms, and numerous cattle wagons, including some stabled in the goods yard, for the transport of horses.  I'm not sure how long it will remain free to view from the BFI but it is a superb gem for the railway historian as well as anyone interested in the area.

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-the-great-dalis-horse-fair-lampeter-may-1914-1914-online

 

4.  I cannot thus far date the the small cattle dock on the Up side but obviously it was next to useless for a major event such as the horse fairs and the loading bank or station platform on that side would also have preseented pproblems but at least animals could easily be moved from the Up to the Down platform (and out of the station) via the foot crossing at the end of the platforms.

 

5 Ian Nolan's Flickr site has some excellent 1963 views of he station including a fairly new looking building alongside the far end of the  Up Siding - perhaps a warehouse/store for agricultural related stuff such as fertiliser or animal feed as several photos show Vanfits standing on the siding adjacent to it.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/page37

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for that link to Ian Nolan's site. I notice there were a Class A and a Class B 14t tank in the siding next to the platform in one view. As there were no oil depots round about, I presume these were off-loaded directly into road tanks by siphoning and hand pump.

[Nevermakeit]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

If it was it was certainly a very unofficial and dangerous way of doing things.  sounds to me ore likely that somebody saw the branch engine attaching vehicles to a passenger train and drew an extended conclusion.   Assistance in the rear would not have been permitted between Lampeter and Carmarthen so if the branch engine went attached to a passenger train it would be attached front inside the train engine.

 

 

 

Sorry, it is probably my incorrect terminology! I think that the milk train was immediately behind the passenger engine, and in front of its coaches. I haven't been able to find the photograph again to confirm. Thanks. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Thanks for that link to Ian Nolan's site. I notice there were a Class A and a Class B 14t tank in the siding next to the platform in one view. As there were no oil depots round about, I presume these were off-loaded directly into road tanks by siphoning and hand pump.

Difficult to say Brian and judging by what is in that road in one photo but gone in another they might not even have destined for or originating from Lampeter but were simply stood aside while a train was - as can be sseen - shunting the yard.

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

Sorry, it is probably my incorrect terminology! I think that the milk train was immediately behind the passenger engine, and in front of its coaches. I haven't been able to find the photograph again to confirm. Thanks. 

That is perfectly ok - tail traffic could be marshalled either at the rear of the train or between the engine and the coaches.  If you look at the Ian Nolan photos you will find this one (linked below) where the (Machynlleth based) engine of a Down train is either dropping off empties in the Up Loop (most likely I think judging by other things in the photo) or picking up empties take forward to Pont Llanio.   Judging by the position of the Shunter it might only be dropping off some of the Miltas.  In my opinion there is sufficient evidence in the photo to indicate that the Miltas have been detached from the front of the passenger train.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/14266602004/

 

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

numerous cattle wagons, including some stabled in the goods yard, for the transport of horses

 

Those horses being able to stick their long noses out of the cattle wagons (as shown in the sequence of the train departing) would worry me.  Do the wagons have "It is dangerous to lean out of the windows" signs inside?

[Nevermakeit]

21 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Those horses being able to stick their long noses out of the cattle wagons (as shown in the sequence of the train departing) would worry me.  Do the wagons have "It is dangerous to lean out of the windows" signs inside?

The people riding on the top of the wagons don't look too safe either! 

[Harlequin]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Looking at the permitted passenger loads between Lampeter and Carmarthen a 78XX was allowed 240 tons and a 2251 was allowed 192 tons while a loaded Milk Tank was 28 tons.  As most of the passenger trains by the 1960s only loaded to 2, or occasionally 3, vehicles there was plenty of tonnage still available for milk tanks on 78XX worked train.  (5 Miltas would be 140 tons so a 2 coach train could easily take that many or more).

 

The logical way to attach the Miltas to a train would be for the train to shunt into the Up Siding to attach, perfectly legitimate move from an operational safety viewpoint as the points into and out that siding were detected by ground discs.  However the pretty substantial looking loading bank came quite near to the trap point and I suspect that passenger vehicles might possible have been out of gauge and an outside cylinder engine would definitely have been out of gauge so 78XX were probably prohibited from entering the siding.

 

As the branch engine would appear to have spent part of the day at Lampeter/working branch trips it seems to be more than likely likely that it would have been used to tail passenger trains in order to attach the Miltas.   But that engine returned to Carmarthen in the early afternoon  although after that no more milk would have come from Felin Fach anyway as I doubt (before the service ended) that the branch passenger train was used to shunt the creamery).   There was a ground disc reading from the Up Siding (to the Up Loop) so it would have been used to signal that the route was set however the actual movement would have been under the control of a Shunter (or a member of staff qualified to perform shunting work such as the Branch Guard) while the passenger train Guard train would help control the movement (by handsignals) as it neared the rear of his train ready to attach.   Not the most economic way of doing the job but the branch engine was there, or could be there, as were staff who worked the branch trip so that would most likely be officially how it was done.  What sometimes happened in reality might well be lost in the mists of time

 

I discount the idea of the Miltas being shunted from elsewhere for several reasons.  Firstly the quickest and easiest move by far would be from the Up Siding.  And secondly there is photographic evidence that the branch engine spent time in that siding - for whatever reason.  finally carrying out shunting moves from the goods. yard would interfere with work being carried out there to load or unload vehicles probably with road vehocles and/or trailers being moved around.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Mike. As ever, it all seems so obvious once you've explained it.

 

One of the photos we've been looking at showed a 74xx pannier tank sitting in the up siding but with no vehicles in front of it. That did puzzle me.

 

So the branch loco (typically a 74xx pannier tank at Lampeter) would draw up to 5 Miltas into the Up siding just before the Aberystwyth-Camarthen was due to arrive. Once the passenger train had arrived and passed the up siding the Shunter would wait for the Up Siding to Up Loop disc to change to off (he could of course very easily chat to the signalman directly) then wave the pannier driver forward until the leading Milta just buffered up to the rear coach of the passenger train and then shout "Whoa" and wave at the pannier driver.

 

The pannier tank must have been providing vacuum to the Miltas to release their brakes, so in what order are those connections unmade and remade to take vacuum from the passenger loco?

 

If the rear Milta was still in the siding would the passenger loco driver pull forward to fully clear the siding and stop before testing the vacuum and departing properly?

 

BTW: I have a reference that says that 1472 worked the last passenger train on the branch but it was found to be not strong enough to work the freight trains and so it was replaced by 7417.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Harlequin

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

 

Thanks Mike. As ever, it all seems so obvious once you've explained it.

 

One of the photos we've been looking at showed a 74xx pannier tank sitting in the up siding but with no vehicles in front of it. That did puzzle me.

 

So the branch loco (typically a 74xx pannier tank at Lampeter) would draw up to 5 Miltas into the Up siding just before the Aberystwyth-Camarthen was due to arrive. Once the passenger train had arrived and passed the up siding the Shunter would wait for the Up Siding to Up Loop disc to change to off (he could of course very easily chat to the signalman directly) then wave the pannier driver forward until the leading Milta just buffered up to the rear coach of the passenger train and then shout "Whoa" and wave at the pannier driver.

 

The pannier tank must have been providing vacuum to the Miltas to release their brakes, so in what order are those connections unmade and remade to take vacuum from the passenger loco?

 

If the rear Milta was still in the siding would the passenger loco driver pull forward to fully clear the siding and stop before testing the vacuum and departing properly?

 

BTW: I have a reference that says that 1472 worked the last passenger train on the branch but it was found to be not strong enough to work the freight trains and so it was replaced by 7417.

 

I wonder if they bothered to bag up the vacuum for the shunt from the siding although it might have been a bit of a rough stop if they came up behind the passenger train with more than one or two Miltas as they tended ti snatch badly when stopped sharply.

 

Anyway the process would go like this -

1. After arrival of the passenger train someone would climb down and take the rear vacuum pipe off the dummy (which would of course also ensure the brakes on the passenger train remained 'on'.

2. If they were doing the job as safely as possible the move from the siding wouldn't start until the person dealing with the rear of the passenger train was out of the way.  In reality I doubt they waited too long (N.B. The Signalman would have reversed the points once the passenger train was at a stand and would probably have cleared the ground disc from the siding at the same time.)

3.  The engine would propel the Miltas from the siding under the control of a Shunter who would control the movement by handsignals to the enginemen.  Someone else, logically the passenger train Guard, would remove the train tail lamp and then be on the platform at the rear of the passenger train to give handsignals as the shunt got nearer to the train - the Shunter would then be relaying that man's signals to the enginemen.

4.  Depending on how 'smartly' the shunt was moving the Driver would get a slow down handsignal and then a signal to stop short of the train leaving a gap between the Miltas and the train.  Then the shunt would be slowly called forward into the rear of the train although in all likelihood I doubt they would bother to stop short back in those days.

5. If the vacuum has been bagged up on the Miltas the shunt Driver would need to 'destroy the brake' - i.e. destroy the vacuum so the brakes applied and the pipe at the end next to the rear coach could be easily taken off the dummy on the Milta.  Then several things need to happen in a specific order -

6a. A Shunter connects the Miltas to the passenger train in a specific order.  First the coupling which is then adjusted to ensure it's set at the correct length by screwing it up. And secondly the vacuum bags are connected and the split pins are inserted.

6b. A Shunter (possibly the same one) disconnects the vacuum bags between the shunt engine and the Milta and puts them on their appropriate dummies  and then uncouples.  When he gets out he might  be the person who puts the tail lamp on the rear Milta although the Guard would probably do it as he has to check that it is there anyway.

6c. Once the Miltas are coupled to the passenger train and the shunt engine has been uncoupled  the shunt engine can move away to wherever it is next needed.

7. With the Miltas coupled to the passenger train the Guard will check (by observation) that the vacuum pipe on the rear is on the dummy and will handsignal the Driver of his train to create vacuum and so release the brakes, and carry out a test of the brake although if the test is done properly the Shunter will do it by easing the rearmost vacuum bag off the dummy to ensure that the brake applies.  Back in those days the brake test procedure was much simpler and was no doubt observed in the breach as often as it was correctly carried out.  However I'm sure particular care would be taken with Miltas because unbraked they could be a right handful with snatches if the train slowed sharply or braked hard.

 

From this list you could probably understand why it would have been quicker to not bag up the vacuum on the Miltas being shunted and to have released their brakes before the shunt started so the leading vacuum bag could already be off the dummy and thus quicker to couple.   Another way of saving time would be to not bother taking the rear vac bag off the dummy on the passenger trains before the Miltas were shunted onto the passenger train.   You can safely bet good money that the staff would all know the quickest way of doing the job

 

Incidentally it was always easier to couple and uncouple on the straight and it is importa nt that handsignals could be relayed from the rear of the passenger train to the shunt enginemen so I would think that the job was usually done with the passenger train drawn sufficientluy far foward to make sure that the shunt engine was clear of the siding points and on the Up Loop.  It might even have been the case that the Shunter controlled all the movement from the ground and frm a position in the 6 foot between the Up & Down Loops depending on which way round the shunt engine was.

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

at the correct length by screwing it up

I was taught that the bottle screw was to be tightened to show two threads (I know it's the same helical thread, you know what I mean) each side of the bottle, on straight track.  This was supposed to result in the coupling being tight and the buffers of each vehicle 'kissing', snatches and buffering up shocks being absorbed by the buffers and the drawhook springs. 

 

It was sometimes impossible to do this on sharp curvature, and if you were being fussy you would re-tighten them on straight track.  I recall having to rescue a fellow guard, a union rep of a certain carriage, from being comically stuck between the fairing of his 52 and the leading wagon of his Freightliner service; nowadays, I'd probably get just as stuck...

[The Stationmaster]

38 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I was taught that the bottle screw was to be tightened to show two threads (I know it's the same helical thread, you know what I mean) each side of the bottle, on straight track.  This was supposed to result in the coupling being tight and the buffers of each vehicle 'kissing', snatches and buffering up shocks being absorbed by the buffers and the drawhook springs. 

 

It was sometimes impossible to do this on sharp curvature, and if you were being fussy you would re-tighten them on straight track.  I recall having to rescue a fellow guard, a union rep of a certain carriage, from being comically stuck between the fairing of his 52 and the leading wagon of his Freightliner service; nowadays, I'd probably get just as stuck...

We were taught one and a half threads visible either side of the D (the piece that the screw was worked by) but that doesn't really matter as the critical things are that the coupling is properly tightened to ensure that the vehicles are firmly buffered up  (to minimise the chance of any oscillation) and equally importantly the thread must be of equal length in both coupling shackles either side of the central screw thread section.  Properly the coupling should be tightened when the buffers evenly compressed which is one reason why coupling on a curve should be avoided if possible.  Another reason is that it is all too easy to finish up with uneven lengths of thread visible in the two shackle parts because of the natural tendency to lengthen the coupling simply by screwing out the outer shackle which will go over the hook on the other vehicle, especially with the far heavier screw couplings used on many nmain line diesel classes).

 

The pic below show what happens when coupling takes place on a curve and if you look carefully you will see that the outer shackle has been screwed out about as far as it will go  because it was regularly being coupled on a curve.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Nevermakeit]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder if they bothered to bag up the vacuum for the shunt from the siding although it might have been a bit of a rough stop if they came up behind the passenger train with more than one or two Miltas as they tended ti snatch badly when stopped sharply.

 

Anyway the process would go like this -

1. After arrival of the passenger train someone would climb down and take the rear vacuum pipe off the dummy (which would of course also ensure the brakes on the passenger train remained 'on'.

2. If they were doing the job as safely as possible the move from the siding wouldn't start until the person dealing with the rear of the passenger train was out of the way.  In reality I doubt they waited too long (N.B. The Signalman would have reversed the points once the passenger train was at a stand and would probably have cleared the ground disc from the siding at the same time.)

3.  The engine would propel the Miltas from the siding under the control of a Shunter who would control the movement by handsignals to the enginemen.  Someone else, logically the passenger train Guard, would remove the train tail lamp and then be on the platform at the rear of the passenger train to give handsignals as the shunt got nearer to the train - the Shunter would then be relaying that man's signals to the enginemen.

4.  Depending on how 'smartly' the shunt was moving the Driver would get a slow down handsignal and then a signal to stop short of the train leaving a gap between the Miltas and the train.  Then the shunt would be slowly called forward into the rear of the train although in all likelihood I doubt they would bother to stop short back in those days.

5. If the vacuum has been bagged up on the Miltas the shunt Driver would need to 'destroy the brake' - i.e. destroy the vacuum so the brakes applied and the pipe at the end next to the rear coach could be easily taken off the dummy on the Milta.  Then several things need to happen in a specific order -

6a. A Shunter connects the Miltas to the passenger train in a specific order.  First the coupling which is then adjusted to ensure it's set at the correct length by screwing it up. And secondly the vacuum bags are connected and the split pins are inserted.

6b. A Shunter (possibly the same one) disconnects the vacuum bags between the shunt engine and the Milta and puts them on their appropriate dummies  and then uncouples.  When he gets out he might  be the person who puts the tail lamp on the rear Milta although the Guard would probably do it as he has to check that it is there anyway.

6c. Once the Miltas are coupled to the passenger train and the shunt engine has been uncoupled  the shunt engine can move away to wherever it is next needed.

7. With the Miltas coupled to the passenger train the Guard will check (by observation) that the vacuum pipe on the rear is on the dummy and will handsignal the Driver of his train to create vacuum and so release the brakes, and carry out a test of the brake although if the test is done properly the Shunter will do it by easing the rearmost vacuum bag off the dummy to ensure that the brake applies.  Back in those days the brake test procedure was much simpler and was no doubt observed in the breach as often as it was correctly carried out.  However I'm sure particular care would be taken with Miltas because unbraked they could be a right handful with snatches if the train slowed sharply or braked hard.

 

From this list you could probably understand why it would have been quicker to not bag up the vacuum on the Miltas being shunted and to have released their brakes before the shunt started so the leading vacuum bag could already be off the dummy and thus quicker to couple.   Another way of saving time would be to not bother taking the rear vac bag off the dummy on the passenger trains before the Miltas were shunted onto the passenger train.   You can safely bet good money that the staff would all know the quickest way of doing the job

 

Incidentally it was always easier to couple and uncouple on the straight and it is importa nt that handsignals could be relayed from the rear of the passenger train to the shunt enginemen so I would think that the job was usually done with the passenger train drawn sufficientluy far foward to make sure that the shunt engine was clear of the siding points and on the Up Loop.  It might even have been the case that the Shunter controlled all the movement from the ground and frm a position in the 6 foot between the Up & Down Loops depending on which way round the shunt engine was.

 

So how long would it typically take for the shunter to attach the coupling and brakes and test them?  Presumably it wouldn't be a quick click and away!

[Nevermakeit]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

We were taught one and a half threads visible either side of the D (the piece that the screw was worked by) but that doesn't really matter as the critical things are that the coupling is properly tightened to ensure that the vehicles are firmly buffered up  (to minimise the chance of any oscillation) and equally importantly the thread must be of equal length in both coupling shackles either side of the central screw thread section.  Properly the coupling should be tightened when the buffers evenly compressed which is one reason why coupling on a curve should be avoided if possible.  Another reason is that it is all too easy to finish up with uneven lengths of thread visible in the two shackle parts because of the natural tendency to lengthen the coupling simply by screwing out the outer shackle which will go over the hook on the other vehicle, especially with the far heavier screw couplings used on many nmain line diesel classes).

 

The pic below show what happens when coupling takes place on a curve and if you look carefully you will see that the outer shackle has been screwed out about as far as it will go  because it was regularly being coupled on a curve.

 

 

Sorry - which bit is the outer shackle?  Is it the whole of the big metal U shape?

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

Sorry - which bit is the outer shackle?  Is it the whole of the big metal U shape?

Looking at my photo above the inner shackle(or link)  is the one which is in a separate fitting (in this case a hole) in the coupling hook of the vehicle it belongs to.  Then comes the centre part of the screw thread and the means of turning it and then at the bottom is the outer shackle (or link).  The outer shackle is the one which  goes over the coupling hook of the next vehicle.  This type of coupling is  -for obvious reasons - called a screw coupling.

 

4 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

So how long would it typically take for the shunter to attach the coupling and brakes and test them?  Presumably it wouldn't be a quick click and away!

Most passenger trains appear to have been booked between 2 and 4 minutes at Lampeter although one or two were booked 6 minutes.  The latter would be ample time to attach a couple of milk tanks on the back and witha few cirners cut it could be done a bit more quickly.   I doubt it mattered very much as nobody would be like to query a delay of a few minutes if that time was used to attach milk tanks.

[Nevermakeit]

Interestingly, at 16.19 in the video at the start of this thread, there is a passenger train arriving from Carmarthen with miltas at the front (confirming your earlier opinion on what was happening in another photo).  Is it the case that those coming from Carmarthen would tend to be at the front, whilst those going to Carmarthen would tend to be at the back, and would this simply be for ease of shunting reasons, or were there rules and regulations applicable?  Thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

Interestingly, at 16.19 in the video at the start of this thread, there is a passenger train arriving from Carmarthen with miltas at the front (confirming your earlier opinion on what was happening in another photo).  Is it the case that those coming from Carmarthen would tend to be at the front, whilst those going to Carmarthen would tend to be at the back, and would this simply be for ease of shunting reasons, or were there rules and regulations applicable?  Thanks.

Most likely that way round for ease of shunting after the relevant trains has halted at the station platform.  Detaching Miltas off the rear of a train arriving from Carmarthen using the train engine would have been quite a perfomance.  Although equally, and with much less messing about, they could quite easily be detached and left in the Down Loop at the platform when the train departed.  

 

But it also depends on how they were dealt with at Carmarthen and if, as seems likely at some times of day, the Aberystwyth train departed from the bay it would have been far simpler to attach them to the front of the front rather than the rear.   interestingly near the end this film shows what is almost certainly an Aberystwyth train, headed by Dean Goods, departing from the bay

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-carmarthen-railway-activities-1950-online

[Nevermakeit]

At 15:16 in the video, the train back from Aberayron seems quite long compared to what arrived.  I assume that this would depend on the traffic requirements of the day, and could vary quite a lot?

 

Would it be fair to say that the majority of the train would be for onward transmission from Lampeter, rather than from stations on the Aberayron branch - or is that not possible to tell?

 

Would it also be reasonable to assume that any wagons going to/via Aberystwyth would be grouped together, and any going to/via Carmarthen would be grouped together?

 

I assume that on arrival in Lampeter, the train would stop in the Up loop, the engine would run round via the Down loop, and pull the train back to push it into the goods yard?  Or would the Carmarthen portion be put in the Up siding?  Which of the five sidings would be most likely to be used to store the wagons for Aberystwyth?  Presumably not the goods shed siding.

 

Thanks

[The Stationmaster]

According to all the STTs/WTTs I've looked at the Aberayron branch trip originated from and returned to Carmarthen although it spent time at Lampeter.  The balance of wagons going onto and off the branch would equalise but it then depended on how long they spent at Aberayron for whatever reason so the number of inwards and outwards wagons wouldn't necessarily be equal on any one day and could in fact be considerably different.  

 

Logically the outward trip from Aberayron would have any Down road (towards Aberystwyth) wagons at the rear so that they could easily be shunted off to the Down side at Lampeter.  Photos suggest to me that Down trains stood vehicles aside while shunting, and therefore would probably have picked up from, the siding immediately next to teh Down loop.  Once any Down road wagons had been shunted off and any other shunting completed the brakevan would be returned to the train and once the engien was back on the front it would be on its way to Carmarthen.

 

I might be well wrong but i suspect there was very little Down road traffic originating from Aberayron.