Prototype practice in Lampeter

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, kingfisher9147 said:

Found this very helpful with my model of the area. Apart from special freight trains what would be the other freight trains be? I know that in the area that there was wool, coal, coke, milk, timber, cattle, meat,lime. Would be there be fish, fruit, bricks, scrap, stone, chemical trains etc. 

Mike 

Regarding the various traffics you ask about:

Fish; if there was any, inbound or outbound, the quantities would mean it travelled in the brake of the passenger train

Fruit; Not a large market for this. According to my mother, oranges were seemingly the only fruit.

Bricks; Possibly. 'Commons' would just be heaped in open wagons, 'facings' might be handled more carefully.

Scrap; This is not an area known for discarding things..

Stone; plenty of small quarries in the area, none, at least as far as I remember, producing stone of great value.

One traffic you've not mentioned were petroleum products; these were unloaded into road tankers in the station yard, or decanted into drums.

[Harlequin]

Brick definitely at Lampeter:

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Harlequin

[Michael Hodgson]

13 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

Thanks for this.  The picture in your message looks rather red - aren't distant signals usually yellow? Or is this a special one?  Thanks.

That's only one of the images in the thread - before about 1922 all signals had red arms and lenses.  And if you go back to the early Victorian era, some railways required trains to stop at distant signals and then proceed slowly as far as the line was clear (as there might be a train standing at the Home SIgnals.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Trains drive past distant signals whether or not they are showing Caution.  A distant signal showing caution merely warns the driver that he should expect the Home signal to be at Danger and he should be prepared to stop there - it isn't a speed limit in itself and it doesn't necessarily mean he has to slow down immediately - that would depend on how effective his brakes are, which would depend on the rolling stock, gradients, the state of the rail and the condition of the brakes. 

 

The signal won't have a lever associated with it, nor the wire running to it plus operating rod on the post.  The arm usually won't even be pivoted, although if it was formerly worked there typically won't be a lens corresponding to the off position but an empty hole in the spectacle plate where there had previously been a lens.  However on the GWR most commonly it would be as seen in this thread with a noticeable gap between post and lamp. 

 

On the GWR a distant signal was fixed at caution (or had to be maintained at caution) if there was a permanent restriction of speed to 15 mph or lower anywhere between the distant signal and the most advanced stop signal it applied to.  As the speed for hand exchange of tokens etc was restricted to 10mph single line crossing stations usually had fixed distant.   (there were exceptions where automatic token exchange equipment was in use and turnout speeds of 40 mph existed but these were very rare).

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Tankerman said:

Reading this has raised a question in my mind. At Penryn, my local station when I was young, it was common for a down goods train to be stopped at the home signal and then to enter the up loop. It is a long time ago now but from memory the home signal remained at danger.

 

Looking at the diagram on the SRS site there is a ground disc signal, identified as 25, adjacent to the home signal. I am assuming that this would have been used to allow the train to enter the up loop. In addition the up loop had a sprung catch point to prevent a train entering it from the down direction, this has the notation 'slotted by 21' on the drawing. Would I be correct in thinking that this sprung point could be manually controlled by the signalman to allow the down goods to enter the up loop?

 

Apologies for going off topic and thanks in advance for any replies. 

Somewhat OT in more ways than one but an interesting contrast with Lampeter as it shows just how different thigs could be at a single line crossing station.  The important point about Penryn, which very much influenced certain features of the track layout was that it was in the midst of a series of steep gradients falling towards Falmouth and the (steeper) gradient from the Truro required freight trains to be limited in speed by 'pinning down' wagon brakes and these were released when the train stopped at the Down Home Signal.

 

The process of pinning down brakes was covered by the Incline Instructions which were applied on specified (in the Sectional Appendix and usually also noted in the STT/WTT) steep falling gradients.  the idea was to add the braking effect of wagon hand brakes to the brake power of the train.  the train woudl be brought to a stand at the top of the gradient (the (G)WR often provided a special notice board to indicate the stopping point.  The train would then be held on the engine and brakevan brakes while a sufficient number of wagon brakes were pinned down to hold the train stationary.  Ifsufficient brakes had been pinned down the train would not move when the engine and brakevan brakes were released and the train would only move when the engine started pulling it.  The idea was that speed would be low, held down by the wagon brakes, thus keeping the engine and brakevan brakes in reserve in order to bring the train to a stand at the desired spot - such as Pentryn's Down Home Signal.

 

In some cases the practice could vary considerably from the theory and it was not unknown for trains to start to run away with the engine and brakevan brakes being unable to stop them.  Speed was always officially restricted to 20 mph or less and on some gradients to no more than 10 mph and it was a distinctly hair raising experience to be on on aloco descending such a gradient at 40 mph with nothing apart from a subsequent rising gradient to stop it.

 

Thus Penryn had runaway catch points at both ends of the Up loop and they were what the Western called 'slotted joints'.(also called slotted spring, or spring slotted, points etc).  Normally they worked as an ordinary spring catch point intended to derail runaway vehicles but as 'Tankerman' worked out they were slotted by a lever in the signal box which enable them to be closed for shunting etc movements.  Ground disc 25 at Penryn's Down Home Signal read to the Up Loop and then through either the connection to the goods yard sidings at the Falmouth or out onto the single line towards Falmouth (where a second catch in the Up loop was also spring slotted).  

 

The other major difference from Lampeter which was present at Penryn was trap points at the exit end of each loop.  This  greatly improved the manner in which trains that were crossing each other could be dealt with because it no longer required the first to run into its loop before the other one arriving at about the same time could be admitted to its loop.   Thus assuming no intermediate stop signal in the loop (as was the case in the Up Loop at Penryn) the Home Signal was released by the Facing Point Lock (FPL on the loop entry points and also the FPL on the trap point at the loop exit.  In the Down direction there was an intermediate stop signal on the loop and it was released by the FPL on the trap point at the loop exit (the trap points were  bolted by the FPL whichever way they were set).   The GWR installed this sort of arrangement at a number of crossing loops in the West Country during the 1920s/'30s in order to speed up crossing operations.  However, unless an exemption was granted,  Rule 39 still required a train to be brought almost to a stand at the Home Signal if the next stop signal in advance was standing at danger but the Signalman no longer had to take into account the situation when he had two trains approaching at about the same time

 

There is a small scale copy of the Penryn 'box diagram on the SRS website -

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwf/S1189.htm

 

[kingfisher9147]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Regarding the various traffics you ask about:

Fish; if there was any, inbound or outbound, the quantities would mean it travelled in the brake of the passenger train

Fruit; Not a large market for this. According to my mother, oranges were seemingly the only fruit.

Bricks; Possibly. 'Commons' would just be heaped in open wagons, 'facings' might be handled more carefully.

Scrap; This is not an area known for discarding things..

Stone; plenty of small quarries in the area, none, at least as far as I remember, producing stone of great value.

One traffic you've not mentioned were petroleum products; these were unloaded into road tankers in the station yard, or decanted into drums.

I was not sure what was in the area or what else ran on the line as most of the book's I have been using or asking people that know the area on listed or tell me general things like I have said. I was seeing what others might know. Mike 

 

[kingfisher9147]

5 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

Is there a link to your model anywhere, please?  I would be interested to see it.  Thanks.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/163101-gwili-railway-heritage-railway-llc-station-oo-gauge/ this is it mainly in the planning stage. Mike 

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, kingfisher9147 said:

I was not sure what was in the area or what else ran on the line as most of the book's I have been using or asking people that know the area on listed or tell me general things like I have said. I was seeing what others might know. Mike 

 

It's a very rural area (though Lampeter possesses a university, which means the town doubles in size in term time.) Farming is virtually all sheep or dairy cattle. There used to be a tradition of weaving the wool to produce Welsh flannel, and also tweed; I'm not sure if this still continues. There is some forestry.

 

[Nevermakeit]

1 hour ago, kingfisher9147 said:

I was not sure what was in the area or what else ran on the line as most of the book's I have been using or asking people that know the area on listed or tell me general things like I have said. I was seeing what others might know. Mike 

 

Yes, ideally I would like to see a copy of whatever log books the railway used to record goods traffic, but I don't know if they would even still exist! 

[kingfisher9147]

I am going to try Swindon and Welsh archives in Aberystwyth as they might have something. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nevermakeit said:

Yes, ideally I would like to see a copy of whatever log books the railway used to record goods traffic, but I don't know if they would even still exist! 

There would have been a book recording wagon numbers but not necessarily what was in the wagons as that wasn't needed back in the days when traffic was invoiced.  Equally there would be cartage delivery sheets and the regular rolling stock return plus weighbridge tickets.  However most station documentation for freight traffic was only kept for a maximum of 5 or 6 years after which it was supposed to go for salvage (what we now call recycling)..

 

Obviously stuff did survive judging by various items I've collected over the years but it really depended on an individual deciding to keep it rather than any official process.  sometimes you can strike lucky so cross your fingers for any searches.

[kingfisher9147]

I did think about looking at Bradshaw guides, as it would or should tell us what industry was in the area to give us an idea on what traffic and goods wagons would be needed for the line. 

[kingfisher9147]

Until I am next at my model club where there should still be a copy of Bradshaw guide, I have been going through two book The manchester and Miford railway by oakwood press and the Aberystwyth to carmarthen book by middleton press. Both have been really helpful but the one that middleton press have done helps more by putting some OS maps which does gives you some idea of what was in the area, well worth getting!

 I have worked out from it and from what people have said on this thread what traffic there was a lot of it guess work.

 

Woolen mills- incoming wool,dye,equipment, coal. outgoing Cloth, blankets etc?

Implement Factory- incoming metal,wood,coal, equipment. outgoing  water wheels,equipment, scrap.

Flannel factory- incoming cloth,dye,equipment, coal. outgoing flannel shirts mainly.

corn mill- incoming corn,equipment,coal. Outgoing flour,corn syrup?

pencader-Chemical works -incoming coal, chemicals, equipment. outgoing chemicals

Quarry incoming- coal,gunpowder,equipment. outgoing,stone,road stone,lead.

Gravel pit incoming coal,gunpowder,equipment. outgoing gravel.

Sewage works incoming coal,equipment,stones, outgoing?

 

Farming ,lime,coal,timber,meat,fruit,veg,household items,milk, fish,peat,fuel,brick, sand, rope, netting material.

Special trains tar,gas, acid, Ammo, house moving ,bulky items being delivered e.g bed,road transport, cattle,horses,sheep,pigs.

 

Passenger trains

Butlins

circus bertram mills

school train

Special day trips

Church college train? lampeter

news papers

mail

royal train

inspector train

prisoner escort

football train

troop train

Fair train

university trains?

 

mike

 

 

 

[Nevermakeit]

2 hours ago, kingfisher9147 said:

Until I am next at my model club where there should still be a copy of Bradshaw guide, I have been going through two book The manchester and Miford railway by oakwood press and the Aberystwyth to carmarthen book by middleton press. Both have been really helpful but the one that middleton press have done helps more by putting some OS maps which does gives you some idea of what was in the area, well worth getting!

 I have worked out from it and from what people have said on this thread what traffic there was a lot of it guess work.

 

Woolen mills- incoming wool,dye,equipment, coal. outgoing Cloth, blankets etc?

Implement Factory- incoming metal,wood,coal, equipment. outgoing  water wheels,equipment, scrap.

Flannel factory- incoming cloth,dye,equipment, coal. outgoing flannel shirts mainly.

corn mill- incoming corn,equipment,coal. Outgoing flour,corn syrup?

pencader-Chemical works -incoming coal, chemicals, equipment. outgoing chemicals

Quarry incoming- coal,gunpowder,equipment. outgoing,stone,road stone,lead.

Gravel pit incoming coal,gunpowder,equipment. outgoing gravel.

Sewage works incoming coal,equipment,stones, outgoing?

 

Farming ,lime,coal,timber,meat,fruit,veg,household items,milk, fish,peat,fuel,brick, sand, rope, netting material.

Special trains tar,gas, acid, Ammo, house moving ,bulky items being delivered e.g bed,road transport, cattle,horses,sheep,pigs.

 

Passenger trains

Butlins

circus bertram mills

school train

Special day trips

Church college train? lampeter

news papers

mail

royal train

inspector train

prisoner escort

football train

troop train

Fair train

university trains?

 

mike

 

 

 

Thanks for that - useful information. I have seen somewhere that they ran a special train for the opening of the new  church sometime in the 1870s I think, but don't know about the college chapel. 

[kingfisher9147]

In 1913 the national poultry made a trip along the line with demonstration car. For eggs and chickens, found that on disused Station website 

[Michael Hodgson]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Obviously stuff did survive judging by various items I've collected over the years but it really depended on an individual deciding to keep it rather than any official process.  sometimes you can strike lucky so cross your fingers for any searches.

Probably more a case of an individual just not bothering to do anything about old paperwork.  A lot of the surviving paperwork is stuff that somebody had just shoved out of his way into an attic and it got discovered later by somebody else.  During WW2 salvage drives probably swept out most of the pre-war stuff.

 

Of course it was always useful if you needed to light a stove.

[The Stationmaster]

59 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Probably more a case of an individual just not bothering to do anything about old paperwork.  A lot of the surviving paperwork is stuff that somebody had just shoved out of his way into an attic and it got discovered later by somebody else.  During WW2 salvage drives probably swept out most of the pre-war stuff.

 

Of course it was always useful if you needed to light a stove.

The main place a lot of the stuff went officially as there was nowhere else to store it at many stations but of course it was easier to forget that way.  A chap I met years ago had been part of a group on the SCR searching through attics etc in stations and buildings that were likely to be demolished.  They found a hoard of letters signed by Dugald Drummond and the ScR PRO startedselling them as a unique survival - while keeping quiet about just how many they actually had. 

 

I regularly used to go through cupboards when doing the big quarterly checks at signal boxes but the only old thing I ever found was a 30 year old detonator - it dated back to when black was one of the code colours for dets!   At on one occasion when I had to go through a booking office with a fine toothcomb looking fora £20 loss in booking (which turned out to be a £20 note which had gone down the back of the cash drawer I went through everything in the place that had anything to do with the balance.  That included the register of blank season ticket issues which had been opened over 60 years earlier in 1913 and was in an LSWR official register for recording the issue of such tickets - less than 10 pages had been used!

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 At on one occasion when I had to go through a booking office with a fine toothcomb looking fora £20 loss in booking (which turned out to be a £20 note which had gone down the back of the cash drawer I went through everything in the place that had anything to do with the balance.

That's nothing - when I was working for Lloyds Bank I once managed to cash up £20 short (which would have meant calling Head Office), one of my colleagues checked and couldn't find it.  Then the branch manager checked, and it turned out to be a whole sack of 2p coins in the bottom drawer that nobody normally used!  It was during the 1974 miner's strike and the Heath Government's 3-day week which meant we working by candlelight that day.  Thereafter we followed the example of most other firms and ignored the edict that we couldn't have any lights on.

[ejstubbs]

6 hours ago, kingfisher9147 said:

the one that middleton press have done helps more by putting some OS maps which does gives you some idea of what was in the area

 

There are two online sources which you can use to look at old OS maps of virtually any area of the UK:

 

National Library of Scotland: Free to use.  The 25" to the mile maps generally give the best detail, although coverage can be patchy.  There is generally wider coverage with the 6" maps, but these can lack detail e.g. identification of what a particular industrial building was actually used for.  The large scale 1:1,250 plans (mainly of urban areas) can be great, but I don't they go back before WWII (though the 1893-1895 maps of London at 1:1,056 are brilliant if that's the area you're interested in).

 

Old-Maps.co.uk: This site has both free and paid for options.  Free access is limited only by how close you can zoom in to the map.  This site sometimes has maps of specific locations that the NLS site doesn't (and vice versa).

[Aire Head]

8 hours ago, kingfisher9147 said:

Sewage works incoming coal,equipment,stones, outgoing

 

Processed sewage known also as "nightsoil" could be used as a fertiliser. While not local to this Bradford Corporations Sewage Treatment works at Esholt which had an extensive railway network and connecting exchange sidings to the Midland Line also used to extract Lanolin from the sewage which was used for a number of things including cosmetics. That may be a local issue however as the Lanolin was a waste product from the Woolen Mills.

 

Pointless trivia time! I did a brief stint of work for Yorkshire Water and found out that the waste processing plant in Masham has a lot of issue with the run off from the breweries, the bacteria used to break down the waste apparently doesnt like it very much!

[Nevermakeit]

On page 222 of the Section D of the South Wales Working Timetable 1949, it shows that the Lampeter signal box opened at 7am.  The previous one at Llanybyther opened at 6.30am.  When the Llanybyther box opened, would it send a bell code to notify the boxes either side of it, and if so, what would happen at Lampeter, as the box wouldn't have been open?  Thanks.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Nevermakeit said:

On page 222 of the Section D of the South Wales Working Timetable 1949, it shows that the Lampeter signal box opened at 7am.  The previous one at Llanybyther opened at 6.30am.  When the Llanybyther box opened, would it send a bell code to notify the boxes either side of it, and if so, what would happen at Lampeter, as the box wouldn't have been open?  Thanks.

When a 'box opened it would send the necessary opening bell signals to any adjacent 'boxes which were open.  This was a very simple procedure on Electric Token block as it only  consisted of sending a 5-5-5 bell signal.  

 

Testing of instruments and beklls was not part of the opening procedure on Electric Token Block but it was officially required to be done every morning (when no trains were about) as well as at other specified occasions after the electrical circuits between 'boxes might have been damaged by weather,

[Nevermakeit]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

When a 'box opened it would send the necessary opening bell signals to any adjacent 'boxes which were open.  This was a very simple procedure on Electric Token block as it only  consisted of sending a 5-5-5 bell signal.  

 

Testing of instruments and beklls was not part of the opening procedure on Electric Token Block but it was officially required to be done every morning (when no trains were about) as well as at other specified occasions after the electrical circuits between 'boxes might have been damaged by weather,

So, presumably Llanybyther wouldn't see 5-5-5 to Lampeter because it wasn't open yet, and there was no facility for it to go to the next open box towards Aberystwyth? But when Lampeter opened it would send 5-5-5 to both Llanybyther and Derry Ormond (if I have remembered correctly)? Thanks. 

[The Stationmaster]

8 minutes ago, Nevermakeit said:

So, presumably Llanybyther wouldn't see 5-5-5 to Lampeter because it wasn't open yet, and there was no facility for it to go to the next open box towards Aberystwyth? But when Lampeter opened it would send 5-5-5 to both Llanybyther and Derry Ormond (if I have remembered correctly)? Thanks. 

None of the 'boxes between Carmarthen and Baerystwyth had block switches so there was no connection on the block between any two boxes if the one between them wasn't open.  the omnibus 'phone circuit would still be open because it had nothing to do with with the block circuits so once Llanbyther had opened he could talk with anyone further north who was on the same omnibus 'phone circuit but that was all,

When there were a number of 'boxes booked to open at the same time I expect the Signalmen first contacted those on either side to make sure they were present befotre sending the 5-5-5.

 

closing was in some respects simpler becay use once he had received 'out of section' for the last train the Signalman would send 7-5-5 to whichever adjacent 'box was still open.  

 

I normally used to book my 'boxes which weren't open continuously to open 10 minutes before the first train and close 10 minutes after they had received 'out of section' for the last train.  But things had changed by the '70s and signal box hours were no longer shown in the WTT but were decided at Area level to meet what the WTT needed (on the Western) and we just issued copies of our 'box hours to whoever might need them.

[Michael Hodgson]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

When there were a number of 'boxes booked to open at the same time I expect the Signalmen first contacted those on either side to make sure they were present befotre sending the 5-5-5.

 

closing was in some respects simpler becay use once he had received 'out of section' for the last train the Signalman would send 7-5-5 to whichever adjacent 'box was still open.  

 

Is there any advantage over sending Call Attention in ringing your oppo to see whether he's arrived yet ?  If he does acknowledge that, you'd send 5-5-5 and if not, you infer there there's no point as he's still on his bike.  Obviously if you want a general chat, that's what the phone's (not supposed to be) for and in any case if the first train isn't due yet he probably wants to put the kettle on, sort out the stove etc.