NER passenger services between Leeds & Pontefract Baghill

[Nick Lawson]

Courtesy of the MR Study Centre I have a 1922 Midland Railway WTT for the Swinton & Knottingley Joint Railway (Midland & NER). This includes the NER services between Pontefract Baghill and Leeds, via the connecting line to the L& Y at Monkhill; and then Castleford.

 

Firstly, although three services per day were straightforwardly between Leeds & Baghill, the evening service from Leeds, having made a 2 minute stop at Baghill then joined the S & K line and continued one stop to Ackworth. A quarter of an hour later it then returned tender-first to Baghill, with a five minute stop allowing it to use the turntable before proceeding back to Leeds.

 

Any ideas why this one service extended to Ackworth?

 

Secondly what sort of train configuration might be expected for these Leeds-Pontefract services in 1922?

 

A few years after the grouping this service was culled entirely.

[sir douglas]

i'm a member of the wakefield modellers, i'll share this with them for any ideas

[doilum]

Wild guess. Was it seasonal? Possibly to pick up market garden produce to arrive fresh in Leeds for the following day's market.

There is no mention in D L Frank's book on the S&K. There is however a photograph in one of Peter Cookson's books of a MR horse drawn dray that operated out of Ackworth. By the grouping, the rapid development of road transport would have made this evening parcel collection / drop off obsolete.

Edited June 21, 2021 by doilum
Additional information

[lanchester]

3 hours ago, doilum said:

Wild guess. Was it seasonal? Possibly to pick up market garden produce to arrive fresh in Leeds for the following day's market.

There is no mention in D L Frank's book on the S&K. There is however a photograph in one of Peter Cookson's books of a MR horse drawn dray that operated out of Ackworth. By the grouping, the rapid development of road transport would have made this evening parcel collection / drop off obsolete.

For seasonal market garden produce in the area, how about forced Rhubarb? Although Ackworth is outside the 'classic' triangle, conventionally bounded by Morley, Wakefield and Rothwell.

[doilum]

6 minutes ago, lanchester said:

For seasonal market garden produce in the area, how about forced Rhubarb? Although Ackworth is outside the 'classic' triangle, conventionally bounded by Morley, Wakefield and Rothwell.

Not sure about rhubarb. Ackworth is west of the A1 and therefore still on coal measure derived soil so potentially, yes. I was thinking more of top quality salad and cauliflower / cabbage which sold for silly money if they reached the market within 24hrs of being picked. Whilst beyond the budget of most ordinary folk, there were enough restaurants and high class grocers in Leeds to create the demand.

As a teenager I worked for a fruit and veg shop in Pontefract. On a Saturday we took a delivery around ,8am from an Ackworth grower Jimmy Lamprey. His boast was the cabbage/ cauliflower /lettuce had only been out of the ground an hour. It was all gone by 10!

It is also possible that this was a milk collection. The morning milk sold locally and the afternoon production sent through to Leeds.

[Nick Lawson]

On 21/06/2021 at 09:33, doilum said:

Was it seasonal?

Might be. the WTT was from  May 1922. I hadn't thought in terms of produce.

[AMJ]

Another option was to get the train out of the way so that another could use the station.  If early evening there might be others scheduled needing the path.

 

Or a equivalent to the modern "ghost" trains that are once a day/week to keep them in the time table etc.

[enginelane]

Day pupils at Ackworth Quaker School? 

[doilum]

7 hours ago, enginelane said:

Day pupils at Ackworth Quaker School? 

But it is evening only. My money is on the milk collection.

[enginelane]

May have come in on a normal service in the morning but looking at the numbers it is a small school so numbers might have been small. Regarding milk would have thought would have gone to a more local dairy than Leeds 

[doilum]

2 hours ago, enginelane said:

May have come in on a normal service in the morning but looking at the numbers it is a small school so numbers might have been small. Regarding milk would have thought would have gone to a more local dairy than Leeds 

As I originally said, morning milk would be super fresh to local door steps.  Leeds as a large city would draw in milk from a wide area. The afternoon production would find its way into the Leeds deliveries the following morning as there would be little local demand. It is possible that large urban dairies could secure a good deal on the afternoon milk. Without refrigerated storage and transport this "just in time" approach to milk and perishable food had to work.

[Nick Lawson]

On 24/06/2021 at 11:49, AMJ said:

Another option was to get the train out of the way so that another could use the station.  If early evening there might be others scheduled needing the path.

In those days Baghill had bay platforms in both directions, and the Leeds trains would have run into one of these. If anything the train would have been more in the way on the main S & K at Ackworth. Counting arrivals and departures separately there were about 100 train movements a day at Baghill in those days; but even so it was never crowded in the way we modellers prefer!

 

But thanks for the thought.

[Nick Lawson]

On 25/06/2021 at 08:48, doilum said:

Without refrigerated storage and transport this "just in time" approach to milk and perishable food had to work.

I like this scenario. A modeller could select a suitable perishables van and fudge whether it contained milk churns or fruit & veg as suggested earlier.

[doilum]

4 hours ago, Nick Lawson said:

I like this scenario. A modeller could select a suitable perishables van and fudge whether it contained milk churns or fruit & veg as suggested earlier.

Or more likely, a full brake.

[Jones the Steam]

Signalling along the line was divided between the MR and NER, NER at the northern end, MR towards the southern end. They interfaced at Moorthorpe North Junction (NER) and Moorthope Junction (MR) at Moorthorpe station.

 

South from Pontefract, Ackworth was the only station ostensibly NER. Moorthorpe had Sheffield - Leeds Services running through it, so the service you speak of would have given Ackworth services a much-needed boost. (Think about Leeds Postal services in both directions).

Just south of Ackworth is Brackenhill Junction, which gave access to the Brackenhill Light Railway and Hemsworth Colliery. Just short of the colliery complex along this line, there was a halt, for use of the coalminers. 

I'm taking a punt here, but is there a chance the service ran on from Ackworth Station to provide a service to the halt?

I have never found any evidence of a coal miners service to the halt, does the 1922 timetable? 

[doilum]

A left field idea. This was a legacy service from the Great War. In order to meet the demands from munitions factories and the loss of men from the general workforce women were brought in from a wide area which could easily have extended as far south as Ackworth from Leeds. The morning commute might try have been possible using existing timetabled services changing in Pontefract , but needed the extra stop to avoid an unacceptable delay in the evening.

 

[Nick Lawson]

On 22/11/2022 at 01:17, Jones the Steam said:

Hemsworth Colliery. Just short of the colliery complex along this line, there was a halt, for use of the coalminers. 

I'm taking a punt here, but is there a chance the service ran on from Ackworth Station to provide a service to the halt?

Was this halt separate from the goods yard at Ackworth Moor Top?

[Nick Lawson]

On 22/11/2022 at 01:17, Jones the Steam said:

I'm taking a punt here, but is there a chance the service ran on from Ackworth Station to provide a service to the halt?

I think it is unlikely. The WTT contains both arrival and departure times where appropriate. There is no departure time southbound from Ackworth. One might argue that a continuation down to the colliery halt could count as a trip working that might not appear in the WTT -  none of the  colliery  mineral workings were covered.

 

However I think the timings might be too tight to fit  in such a trip:

The southbound evening service was timed to leave Pontefract at 1908 and arrive at Ackworth at 1914.

It then departed northbound again from Ackworth at 1930, leaving 16 minutes to fit in such a manoeuvre.

 

However, I do like the idea of  adding a workman's train to this halt. Any additional info gratefully received.

[doilum]

In the unlikely event that it was a workman's train to Moortop it would need to fit with shift changes which were around 6am, 2pm and 10pm.

15 minutes would have been insufficient to cover a rerun journey of almost two miles. I have always heard of the line referred to as the Brackenhill light railway in which case it would be subject to a 25mph speed limit.

A quick Google search will take you to some interesting photos and maps from local heritage groups.

Edited November 24, 2022 by doilum

[Nick Lawson]

Well before the railway age, my great x4 grandfather lived at Moor Top for a couple of years. The church register recorded him (at the birth of his son) as a "daytallyman" - a labourer hired by the day. Dunno whether that was an ag lab, or whether he was working in the quarry that turned out millstone.

[Jones the Steam]

The halt was just short of the colliery, way past Ackworth Moortop Goods Only Station. 

[Jones the Steam]

Missing Service

In the 1947 WTT, there is a ECS working from Clifton carriage siding to form the 16:30 service starting from Pontefract for York. I found the service peculiar, in that it is a long way to send empty carriage stock, just for a return EP return service. When I inspected previous year’s WTTs, and later ones, I found there was nothing similar.

The two types of passenger services, work the Sheffield – York line in tandem with each other. Whereas an ordinary passenger service makes multiple stops along the line, express passenger trains only call at the principal stations like Pontefract Baghill. In some of the timetables, they show ordinary passenger trains running from Sheffield and stopping at Baghill. After the passengers leave the train, the empty stock is then transferred to the North Bay. A following express train then stops and passengers for Hull will get off, and the passengers from the earlier ordinary train can take advantage of the express to York.  The ordinary passenger train then follows the express, again calling at intermediate stations.

 

What I realised, was an express service that ran through Baghill in 1947 had been suspended. To make amends, I believe they laid on the ‘special’ service as temporary measure, as in later timetables, there was an express service that filled the bill. Your mystery service might be some such similar, to make up for a missing ordinary service.

 

Hull Mail Service

Alternatively, there is a service made up of two carriages sets from Selby. One set is of two coaches and the other three. The sets are used as a shuttle service through to Hull. There two sets are combined to make up an evening mail train from Hull. When the train gets back to Selby, it is divided, and the three-carriage set goes through to Leeds, while the two-carriage set goes through to Baghill. Just as soon as the two carriage set forwarded from Selby arrives at Baghill, and the passengers have alighted on to the Up through platform, the train is shunted forwards and back into the South Bay. This clears the main line. The mail from Hull is unloaded sharply, ready for an Up express cross-country that arrives shortly afterwards. Mail is dropped off and loaded before the express continues south. The ex-Hull is then transferred to the Down loop and the loco turned ready for the return trip to Selby.

There are many instances of mail transfers at principal stations. The 1922 Ackworth extension could well be such, where mail is dropped off and collected. The temporary extension might be to make up for a missing service.  

 

[Jones the Steam]

Motive Power and Consist 

I might ask, what might be the loco and carriage diagrams in the 1922 service? Would be a LNER D20 (NER Class R) be suitable? 

[Nick Lawson]

@Jones the Steam Thanks for all the info.

Quote

Your mystery service might be some such similar, to make up for a missing ordinary service.

 

Something to bear in mind when I look into WTTs again one day. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

1. Where was Clifton carriage sidings?

2. D.L Franks book on the S & K divides passenger services into:

 a. express York-Sheffield which didn't stop at Baghill or any other intermediate stations.

b. Semi-fast which stopped at Baghill only

c. All stations.

I liked the idea of modelling the interaction of an all-stations arriving and backing into a bay; the semi arriving, swapping passengers with the local and departing; the local trundling on its way. Sadly for me, this sort of working didn't seem to exist in 1922.

3. Thank you for the details about the Selby-Hull-Baghill working. I knew about the interaction of the Hull mail service with the up mainline (ex Newcastle) mail, but useful to get an idea of the size of the Hull train. Also in the 1922 timetable, the Hull mail, having transferred to the northbound bay waited for hours to meet the northbound mainline mail and do a similar exchange with that before setting off to Hull.

 

4. Most of the passenger services over the S & K were run by the Midland or GC. The Leeds-Baghill service would have been NER, but probably something smaller than a D20 which was still one of the bigger express engines in those days?  But I intend to get a D20 in there somewhere possibly the mainline Mail. The two coach mail from Selby might have been run by an 0-6-0, but Selby shed in 1922 had Tennant 1472 and I have a kit in the stash even if I have to invoke Rule 1!

 

Cheers.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Nick Lawson
improvement

[iands]

20 minutes ago, Nick Lawson said:

@Jones the Steam Thanks for all the info.

 

Something to bear in mind when I look into WTTs again one day. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

1. Where was Clifton carriage sidings?

2. D.L Franks book on the S & K divides passenger services into:

 a. express York-Sheffield which didn't stop at Baghill or any other intermediate stations.

b. Semi-fast which stopped at Baghill only

c. All stations.

I liked the idea of modelling the interaction of an all-stations arriving and backing into a bay; the semi arriving, swapping passengers with the local and departing; the local trundling on its way. Sadly for me, this sort of working didn't seem to exist in 1922.

3. Thank you for the details about the Selby-Hull-Baghill working. I knew about the interaction of the Hull mail service with the up mainline (ex Newcastle) mail, but useful to get an idea of the size of the Hull train. Also in the 1922 timetable, the Hull mail, having transferred to the northbound bay waited for hours to meet the northbound mainline mail and do a similar exchange with that before setting off to Hull.

 

4. Most of the passenger services over the S & K were run by the Midland or GC. The Leeds-Baghill service would have been NER, but probably something smaller than a D20 which was still one of the bigger express engines in those days?  But I intend to get a D20 in there somewhere possibly the mainline Mail. The two coach mail from Selby might have been run by an 0-6-0, but Selby shed in 1922 had Tennant 1472 and I have a kit in the stash even if I have to invoke Rule 1!

 

Cheers.

Clifton Carriage Sidings were at York.