Suggestions for layout basics in my loft please?

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi @IscaSteve, I’ve had a read through of the thread so far and there’s some really good advice, and I would definitely agree with the likes of @The Stationmaster and @woodenhead on the question of building requirements, having looked at a cellar option last year (and also quickly ruled it out).  The Victorian railway builders faced the challenge of how to fit their layouts into an unforgiving landscape - we face the challenge of having to create an environment to build it in first!

 

If I might add a couple of observations which I hope are helpful:

 

Don’t let this put you off railway modelling: it is a fascinating hobby that I’ve found to be educational (both in terms of knowledge and practical skills), relaxing and social, as well as tapping into a lifelong interest  - and the dreams of childhood!

 

I began planning a layout in earnest in May of last year.  I spent a long time on this Forum and had a lot of encouragement and good advice.  The particular logistical challenges I faced were different, but the main lessons I learned were these:

• Do get started modelling something.  From the opening post, it looks like you know the trains you want to run, so maybe buy one of them: it will give you a good feel for the size, and the best incentive to press on!  Also, why not try a building kit, or maybe a short ‘photo plank’ to display your locomotive and try some scenery?  However you go about your big project, it will take time - one source of my motivation was the momentum I was building up while I planned.

• I also spend a lot of time reading track plan books and own several I enjoy re-reading, but I’ve found they’re not always the best place to start: have a look at some prototype videos / photos / books, particularly for the area you’re interested in (ECML in the transition era?).  The expert track planners are trying to find ways to replicate this in miniature, so it can be helpful to see what catches your eye in the original too.  What is it that makes you go “Aha!”?

• Do plan logistically: in some ways the track plan is the icing on the cake, even though it’s the thing we may want to start with (no need to ask how I know ).  If you do go for the loft, will you be building the boards up there, or making modules elsewhere (in the garage?) and then carry thing them up in sections for example?  What will each bit weigh?  If you do want to carry 2.4m lengths of PSE softwood or big slices of plywood up a ladder, what might they bash into?

• Trains will run!  Although it took me more than a year to get my first test circuit up and running, I did get there, so if folk will forgive me including a photo to illustrate the point:
•  

 

 

…I have something to play with run while I work on my second layout 😀.  (Picture from my NG Layout thread).

 

Hope that helps.  As. @Philou said - the most important rule is to have fun.  Keith.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

I did one round a bedroom 60" above floor level which left 90% of the floor area available for bed room sorts of things, Ok I had to use a step ladder for working on it and operate standing up, 

That's useful for keeping little fingers off the rolling stock.

 

I have seen a garage layout whose owner still wanted to keep the car in the garage.  He hung the whole layout on pulleys which he hosted to the ceiling when not in use.  There were a number of fixed support brackets for it to rest on placed strategically round the   building. so he wasn't running it swinging on ropes!  As the whole thing was quite heavy, raising/lowering was assisted by a counterweight also on pulleys near the end wall.  It worked, but I think he would have done better just to leave the car outside.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, DCB said:

I did one round a bedroom 60" above floor level which left 90% of the floor area available for bed room sorts of things, Ok I had to use a step ladder for working on it and operate standing up, 

That's useful for keeping little fingers off the rolling stock.

 

I have seen a garage layout whose owner still wanted to keep the car in the garage.  He hung the whole layout on pulleys which he hosted to the ceiling when not in use.  There were a number of fixed support brackets for it to rest on placed strategically round the   building. so he wasn't running it swinging on ropes!  As the whole thing was quite heavy, raising/lowering was assisted by a counterweight also on pulleys near the end wall.  It worked, but I think he would have done better just to leave the car outside.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

I think you have to be pragmatic. You're not trying to create a complete habitable space which might have wardrobes, beds etc and multiple people moving around. You're building a model railway which is relatively lightweight. You don't need an expensive loft conversion or complex fire arrangements. But u must think about insulation and ventilation, otherwise it will be unusable in winter and summer.

I think the building regs are more concerned with someone becoming trapped in a loft during a house fire or a fire starting in said loft than it being 'habitable' in the sense of it being all nice and comfy to be in.  Once you begin spending time in the loft other than to fix something or put something in there for storage it becomes a habitable space and the regulations come into play and the more floors your house has the more stringent the regulations become. 

[Robert Stokes]

The first thing you have to decide is whether you just want to run a few trains or whether you want a moderately realistic model railway. A garage, usually about 5m x 2.6m, is large enough for a double track oval round the walls with a minimum radius of at least 24". I don't think that the loft space you mention is large enough to do this. If you want something not too unrealistic then please forget about set-track and use Peco flexi-track and streamline points (the larger the better). These give track separation of 50mm which looks far better than set-track. Also set-track curves have too small a radius to look good (4th radius may not be too bad).

 

Good luck with the project whatever you decide.

[RobinofLoxley]

There are very few layout locations that dont involve any compromises. I know of only 2 people here, although im sure there are others, with purpose built facilities not size limited (they could be larger if those conecrned wanted them to be).

[The Stationmaster]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I think the building regs are more concerned with someone becoming trapped in a loft during a house fire or a fire starting in said loft than it being 'habitable' in the sense of it being all nice and comfy to be in.  Once you begin spending time in the loft other than to fix something or put something in there for storage it becomes a habitable space and the regulations come into play and the more floors your house has the more stringent the regulations become. 

The important thing is using the space as a roo.  when we built outr house (finished 2007) I went into this in detail with the Planning office and Building and also with the Rating Officer when she came to inspect and value the house for rating purposes.   If you use the space for something where you will spend some time - e.g. constructing/operating a model railway - they all said that made it a habitable space and it therefore had to comply with the Building Regulations; how well/extensively it is finished is not the relevant point, what matters is that someone will be spending some time in it.

 

As it happened a planning problem forced me to drop the roof line in order to get the plans so I slightly altered the spec for the builder and advised the Planning Office that the roof space would no longer be a habitable space but would be a loft used for storage and nothing else (a principal reason tfor doing that was to make the first landing light and airier by removing the staircase to the loft).  When the Building Inspector carried out the completion check he noted that a retractable loft ladder had been provided so duly inspect the roof space - which is fully lined and floored and has lighting and a power point - and was satisfied that it was in use for storage and was not habitable space.  The Rating Officer - an extremely helpful lady - also enquired what had been done and I explained the change to her (she in any case already  had a copy of my letter to the Planning Office) and she was satisfied that it was not habitable space and therefore would not be counted as such in her rating of the property.   So fairly unequivocal views from all those professionals that it it was to be used for a model railway it would have to be dealt with in accordance with the Building Regulations for a habitable space.

 

Having checked the relevant parts of the Regulations they appear not to have changed.  How individual officers exercise any room for interpretation of the application of the Building Regulations might well be a different matter.  the conversion of roof spaces to habitable space is incidentally basically a Building Regulations matter although somey local authorities will require Planning Permission to be sought but usually only if it alters the exterior appearance of the building.  

 

The situation in respect of rating and Council Tax (in England) is also interesting.  if the area is made habitable space in a new build it is taken into account in setting the Council Tax banding.  If however it is carried out as a conversion (and unless the rules have changed?) it does not affect the Council Tax banding until such time as the building is sold to a new owner- at which time it should be reassessed by a Rating officer (I wonder how often that actually happens?).

 

Simple answer - if you want to know how the relevant authorities view such things in your area and what interpretations they might put on the application of the Regulations then check the website of the relevant local authority and consult    a qualified surveyor

[IscaSteve]

On 15/09/2021 at 10:47, Robert Stokes said:

The first thing you have to decide is whether you just want to run a few trains or whether you want a moderately realistic model railway. A garage, usually about 5m x 2.6m, is large enough for a double track oval round the walls with a minimum radius of at least 24". I don't think that the loft space you mention is large enough to do this. If you want something not too unrealistic then please forget about set-track and use Peco flexi-track and streamline points (the larger the better). These give track separation of 50mm which looks far better than set-track. Also set-track curves have too small a radius to look good (4th radius may not be too bad).

 

Good luck with the project whatever you decide.

I want to be able to run trains and do some modelling etc but I'm not aiming for an accurate recreation of a particular location or have it true to life. I'd rather mix classes and eras etc and enjoy operating the trains.

 

Thanks for the advice about the track type. My next step is to properly understand and compare the various types available and work out what's right for me. I think flexitrack is an interesting way to do this. 

[IscaSteve]

On 15/09/2021 at 09:32, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Do get started modelling something.  From the opening post, it looks like you know the trains you want to run, so maybe buy one of them: it will give you a good feel for the size, and the best incentive to press on!

I think I may well do this. Getting something physical may help my thought process. 

[Robert Stokes]

3 hours ago, IscaSteve said:

but I'm not aiming for an accurate recreation of a particular location

You don't have to recreate a real location to get something moderately realistic. It can be an entirely ficticious station of your own design but still look reasonable.

 

What I mean by unrealistic is a track plan I saw for an 8ft by 4ft baseboard which had two stations. The engine of a train would be entering one station before the last coach had left the other station. Some people may be happy with that - O.K. But my point was that you have to decide what degree of realism you want or don't want.

[IscaSteve]

@Robert Stokes ah yes I see what you mean now. Thank you. Yes I do want some element of realism.