Dcc wiring help - reliability

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, Crosland said:

make sure you use the correct size

Yes - there are different colours for the different sizes - so my bits box looks quite colourful!

 

I have found them very reliable, but you do have to match the connector size to the wire/cable.

Installing them just takes a good pair of pliers - squish and you're done.

 

Yours, Mike

[DY444]

On 23/09/2021 at 16:12, Robert Stokes said:

You mention using DCC Concepts point motors. Are these the slow-action type? If so then you definitely should remove the springs and should use DPDT switches which give constant current instead of push buttons.

 

On 23/09/2021 at 16:26, Jonnyb said:

Hi thanks for helping with this, I do have the slow acting motors so I will remove the springs then.

 

On 23/09/2021 at 22:08, DCCconcepts said:

Yes - we recommend removing the over centre springs when using slow action motors - regardless of manufacturer.

 

For the record everybody always says remove the springs but you don't have to.  I've got 72 points on my layout; all bar one have tortoises and the other has a cobalt.  All 72 still have the springs fitted.  I just replace the thin springy motor actuator wire with a suitably bent paper clip which being stiffer doesn't bend against the spring.  I apply power to the motor for 3-4 seconds (done via computer but you could easily do it with a push button) and the spring keeps the point in the right position after the power has been removed.  Mine have been like that for 20 years and have been fine.  Annoys the purists obviously but it works.

Edited September 27, 2021 by DY444

[Robert Stokes]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

For the record everybody always says remove the springs but you don't have to.

 

Maybe you don't have to, but if you don't remove the spring, then you lose the point (pun intended) of using slow-action motors. With the spring still there, the blades will move across in one quick, noisy movement much as they do with solenoid motors. With the spring removed, especially using 9V DC power, the blades move across slowly and quietly as they do on the prototype. The fact that you have to change the actuator wire should tell you something.

Why do you want to leave the spring in place?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Robert Stokes

[WIMorrison]

Experience suggests to me that you are  heading towards short-circuits if you don’t remove the spring as the blades move out of sync with the motor if you are using the motor to change frog polarity.

 

needing to change the springy actuating wire for heavier non-springy wire Is indicative of proving that you should actually remove the spring in the turnout anyway to make the motors operate as designed.

 

 

[DY444]

1 hour ago, Robert Stokes said:

 

Maybe you don't have to, but if you don't remove the spring, then you lose the point (pun intended) of using slow-action motors. With the spring still there, the blades will move across in one quick, noisy movement much as they do with solenoid motors. With the spring removed, especially using 9V DC power, the blades move across slowly and quietly as they do on the prototype. The fact that you have to change the actuator wire should tell you something.

Why do you want to leave the spring in place?

 

Except they don't do that.  I use wire the same diameter as the hole in the Peco point tie bar, and as the wire doesn't bend the spring can't snap the blades over and they move at the rate determined by the motor moving the wire (ie slowly!).  The combination of the spring and the stiff wire prevents the blades from moving when the power is removed.

 

Changing the actuator wire tells me I hate the actuator wire. 

 

Reasons for doing it include:

As I said I hate the hard, springy wire that comes with slow motion motors, fiddly and difficult to cut.  My replacements are far easier.

I think the stall current of a tortoise is quoted as 16mA so with 72 motors that's over an amp continuously I don't have to provide

Not having to power the motors all the time also opens up more options for controlling the motors as I just need a 3 to 4 second pulse to throw the point.  

 

[DY444]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Experience suggests to me that you are  heading towards short-circuits if you don’t remove the spring as the blades move out of sync with the motor if you are using the motor to change frog polarity.

 

needing to change the springy actuating wire for heavier non-springy wire Is indicative of proving that you should actually remove the spring in the turnout anyway to make the motors operate as designed.

 

 

Which I'm not.  Years before they became fashionable I designed my own automatic frog switcher which I use on every point.

 

The points have been operated with springs in-situ and with my DIY actuator wire for 20 years without any problems at all so I'm fairly confident about its longevity and that it works.  As Gene Kranz said in Apollo 13 "I don't care what it was designed to do; what can it do?"

 

PS.  I knew this would generate "you can't do that", "this bad thing will happen" etc responses because it always does.  My purpose in mentioning it was to point out from long practical experience that it is possible to operate slow motion point motors slowly without removing the spring.  You can't do it with the original wire because it's thin and springy and just bends and the reason I tried it in the first place is because I grew to hate it and wanted to find a more user friendly alternative.  I couldn't care less if nobody else in the entire world does it this way, I'm just pointing out that it is actually possible, it works perfectly well, has done so for me for 20 years and from my perspective also has other advantages in respect of control flexibility. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by DY444

[Robert Stokes]

3 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

 

With the spring still there, the blades will move across in one quick, noisy movement.

 

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Except they don't do that.  I use wire the same diameter as the hole in the Peco point tie bar, and as the wire doesn't bend the spring can't snap the blades over and they move at the rate determined by the motor.

 

 

O.K. I accept that I got that part wrong. But how do you stop the Tortoise motors drawing their 16mA each at the end of their movement?

 

P.S. I think that I've worked it out. You use push button switches that don't provide permanent current.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Robert Stokes

[melmerby]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

As I said I hate the hard, springy wire that comes with slow motion motors, fiddly and difficult to cut.  My replacements are far easier.

I think the stall current of a tortoise is quoted as 16mA so with 72 motors that's over an amp continuously I don't have to provide

Not having to power the motors all the time also opens up more options for controlling the motors as I just need a 3 to 4 second pulse to throw the point.  

Bit of a PITA IMHO

I've got 7 points in a row and I haven't got enough free fingers to operate that many push buttons at once.

I just let point decoders do it and they all change at once.

 

This idea that the point blades will open when the power is off I don't get, none of my point blades come away from the stock rail when the power is off, they are all suitably sprung by the nice flexible spring that Circuitron supply with the Tortoise as standard, so even with a push button the original spring* will work as long as you remove the Peco spring.

*It also cuts nicely with an ordinary pair of side cutters, the ones I use are more than 30 years old.

 

BTW my points are controlled by a separate DCC system, so don't sap any loco current.

Edited September 27, 2021 by melmerby

[DY444]

14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

 

 

Bit of a PITA IMHO

I've got 7 points in a row and I haven't got enough free fingers to operate that many push buttons at once.

I just let point decoders do it and they all change at once.

 

This idea that the point blades will open when the power is off I don't get, none of my point blades come away from the stock rail when the power is off, they are all suitably sprung by the nice flexible spring that Circuitron supply with the Tortoise as standard, so even with a push button the original spring* will work as long as you remove the Peco spring.

*It also cuts nicely with an ordinary pair of side cutters, the ones I use are more than 30 years old.

 

BTW my points are controlled by a separate DCC system, so don't sap any loco current.

 

Horses for courses.  If you've got a layout with say 4 points then push buttons is a viable option.  On the other hand I've got routes which require 16 point ends to be called so it isn't a viable option and I let the computer take care of it all. 

 

I'm glad you find the Circuitrons's standard wire so easy to work with.  I've kept the two pairs of not-inexpensive cutters with chunks missing from their blades courtesy of that stuff.  

 

I have separate systems for accessories and traction too but that doesn't alter the fact that over an amp would be being pulled out continuously if I kept all the motors powered up. 

 

Anyway I'm done with this debate.  There's more than one way to skin a cat and I'm very happy indeed with the operation and reliability of what I've done and I will continue to do it this way in future.  Everyone else can do what they like. 

[Crewlisle]

Jonny,

 

May I suggest you look at my three comments in Iainbain1491 post 'Frustrated beginner requiring help with point wiring' dated 15/9, 24/9 & especially 29/9.  As you suggested, it probably would be better having a separate bus wire, together with a CDU, to power your point motors.  I have never considered powering point motors from my standard track bus which is obviously wired directly into my Lenz LZV 100 Command/Power Station & is used solely to provide control to only the locos.

 

Peter