Wiring an electrofrog point for Analogue

[Trainnoob]

In a building a little HO scale Norwegian themed micro layout, it's for a realism contest and so I've decided to take the courageous plunge into electro frog points, but all the videos I've seen about live frog installation are for DCC, do live frog points require any wiring or slight modification like they do on DCC or can DC Power run them straight out the box.

 

I have chosen analogue for this project as DCC for such a small single-track layout is kind of a waste.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Trainnoob

[WIMorrison]

There is no difference between DCC and DC for turnout or turnout frog wiring.

 

Wiring the frog though a switch improves the reliability of contact and thus improves running for DC as much as it does for DCC

[Pete the Elaner]

57 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

There is no difference between DCC and DC for turnout or turnout frog wiring.

 

Wiring the frog though a switch improves the reliability of contact and thus improves running for DC as much as it does for DCC

 

Agree 100%

 

Wiring an electrofrog point differently as per the included recommendations increases reliability & reduces the possibility of a short circuit.

Better reliability is always desirable & short circuits are always best avoided. The waveform used to delivered to the rails is completely irrelevant.

 

I find it frustrating to hear comments about "wiring a turnout for DCC". This is not directed at the OP, but would have been something past down because we see repeated time & again. Even Peco describe modifying points for reliability as "wiring for DCC". I wish they would stop.

[Crosland]

The best practice wiring is exactly the same for DC or DCC. 

 

DCC is less forgiving of the usual DC short cuts.

[Trainnoob]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Agree 100%

 

Wiring an electrofrog point differently as per the included recommendations increases reliability & reduces the possibility of a short circuit.

Better reliability is always desirable & short circuits are always best avoided. The waveform used to delivered to the rails is completely irrelevant.

 

I find it frustrating to hear comments about "wiring a turnout for DCC". This is not directed at the OP, but would have been something past down because we see repeated time & again. Even Peco describe modifying points for reliability as "wiring for DCC". I wish they would stop.

Yeah I could imagine that being annoying.

 

[kevinlms]

22 hours ago, Trainnoob said:

In a building a little HO scale Norwegian themed micro layout, it's for a realism contest and so I've decided to take the courageous plunge into electro frog points, but all the videos I've seen about live frog installation are for DCC, do live frog points require any wiring or slight modification like they do on DCC or can DC Power run them straight out the box.

 

I have chosen analogue for this project as DCC for such a small single-track layout is kind of a waste.

You do realise that generally speaking, it's possible to configure the settings of DCC decoders, to best suit particular locomotives. So if you have a very small layout, customising the settings will enable the locos to perform much better.

There are threads on RMweb from people who have installed decoders in notoriously difficult to control with DC locos, such as Hornby's 'Smokey Joe'.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

You do realise that generally speaking, it's possible to configure the settings of DCC decoders, to best suit particular locomotives. So if you have a very small layout, customising the settings will enable the locos to perform much better.

There are threads on RMweb from people who have installed decoders in notoriously difficult to control with DC locos, such as Hornby's 'Smokey Joe'.

 

That is a very good point.

Some older motors run better with feedback, while others will get damaged by it. If you wanted to run both on DC, you could either use a smooth controller & accept that the FB one will run a little worse or you could set up cab control & switch between controllers. The second option is a little fiddly & can allow you to mistakenly control the coreless motor with feedback.

 

With DC, the decoder controls the motor so you configure each one to provide optimal motor control & they both respond to the same system.

 

Some may argue that this puts them off DCC but it is just a feature which DC cannot offer & may be useful for someone who wants it.

It also requires a half-decent decoder. The real budget ones are less flexible but these a re barely cheaper than better alternatives anyway.

 

Ok, so we seem to have drifted, but it was a good point.

[DCB]

Inside I  leave the points alone, exactly as they come out of the box for DC, this on a layout started 35 years ago.   Outside in the garden I add frog switching switches which work in parallel to the point blades.   The problem is OO track and Peco Streamline points won't take loads of much more than 1 amp, my old portable layout used 2 amps and I had fishplates glowing red hot on occasions.   Lots of DCC layouts have insulated point blades unbeknown to the owners due to breakdown of the contact between blades and adjacent rails and so their stock need  masses of pickups.   

To be honest if you have a loco with pickup on only one axle it should still crawl everywhere on a live frog layout.   Its what I use for testing.   

For DCC you need to ensure the open point blade is at the same polarity as the adjacent rail or you can get shorts which shut the system down.   With DC I have only had this problem on 30 odd year old curved points. 

If you do decide to  modify points try not to melt the sleeper base.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

 

For DCC you need to ensure the open point blade is at the same polarity as the adjacent rail or you can get shorts which shut the system down.  

 

I never understand this argument at all. Why is it OK to have intermittent shorts on DC - it ruins slow speed running, just as much as intermittent open circuits.

Why not modify ALL points for DC and DCC and be done with it?

 

I can understand people not modifying at all, if poor running doesn't bother them, but why a need to fix for DCC, but not DC?

[WIMorrison]

There isn’t any need to alter turnouts for DCC,  You alter turnouts for better running irrespective of the power source.

[Chris M]

I run DC N gauge and have made no modification to the code 55 electrofrog points. I only get very occasional grief from point blades not providing contact. I will get round to  switching the current at the same time as the point sometime in order to improve reliability but as problems are so rare there is no rush. There is absolutely no problem with slow running, just the very occasional need to clean the contact point on the blade. The only thing to be sure of with electrofrog points is that your track formation won't cause any shorts. For instance, if you have a loop then the points at each end of the loop must throw together in order to avoid a short. Tracks that just go to sidings and don't join back to the main tracks will never cause a short.

 

Unifrog points are the ones that are designed primarily for DCC and, so far as I am concerned, need additional electrics to make them work as required for DC.

[DCB]

On 12/11/2021 at 23:45, kevinlms said:

I never understand this argument at all. Why is it OK to have intermittent shorts on DC - it ruins slow speed running, just as much as intermittent open circuits.

Why not modify ALL points for DC and DCC and be done with it?

 

I can understand people not modifying at all, if poor running doesn't bother them, but why a need to fix for DCC, but not DC?

 Because most  DCC is about 4 amps and DC is seldom more than 1 amp.   I have had fishplates glowing red on 12 volts 2 amps not a short but a lash up of 4 or 5 Transcontinental locos on a really long train fed by two X 1 amp 12va power units, not stalled, running.  Not many UK folks have done that but you need droppers, bus wires modified points all the DCC stuff  when you start getting loads much over 1 amp even on DC. 

The intermittent shorts on DC seldom trip the cheap and nasty switches poly switches typically used as DC overload cut outs, especially at low speeds low controller settings which probably only show up as 5 volts if you put a meter on it.  Even flat out the short usually causes a momentary slowing and a shower of sparks, my fiddle yard approach over curved points has some bad bits where Hornby coaches which are tight to gauge, briefly short and spark, and make my Hornby Dublo cut out buzz and glow but it's no big deal the train slows briefly maybe but its been like it for 20 years.  DCC is the full voltage all the time and you need a much quicker overload cut out.   

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, DCB said:

 Because most  DCC is about 4 amps and DC is seldom more than 1 amp.   I have had fishplates glowing red on 12 volts 2 amps not a short but a lash up of 4 or 5 Transcontinental locos on a really long train fed by two X 1 amp 12va power units, not stalled, running.  Not many UK folks have done that but you need droppers, bus wires modified points all the DCC stuff  when you start getting loads much over 1 amp even on DC. 

The intermittent shorts on DC seldom trip the cheap and nasty switches poly switches typically used as DC overload cut outs, especially at low speeds low controller settings which probably only show up as 5 volts if you put a meter on it.  Even flat out the short usually causes a momentary slowing and a shower of sparks, my fiddle yard approach over curved points has some bad bits where Hornby coaches which are tight to gauge, briefly short and spark, and make my Hornby Dublo cut out buzz and glow but it's no big deal the train slows briefly maybe but its been like it for 20 years.  DCC is the full voltage all the time and you need a much quicker overload cut out.   

Fish plates glowing is a sign of poor continuity and is equally applicable to DC and DCC.

[ikcdab]

We spend a lot of time and money on our layouts and poor running ruins all of that. It is worth 100% taking the time to wire things up properly at the start. If doesn't really take that much longer and the resulting improvement in running is well worth it. By this I mean

1. Having a power feed to each piece of track (do not rely on joiners for continuity)

2. Having a power feed to each turnout crossing ("frog" ) so you do not rely on the point blades for continuity. I use miniature relays to switch the polarity. 

3. Using proper gauge cable (I use 7 X 0.2 on my DC layout)

4. Decent cable joiners.

 

It really is worth it!

 

Ian C

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by ikcdab

[Pete the Elaner]

On 13/11/2021 at 08:04, Chris M said:

 

Unifrog points are the ones that are designed primarily for DCC and, so far as I am concerned, need additional electrics to make them work as required for DC.

 

It depends on what you mean by "as required".

I isolated & re-fed my sidings long before I thought of using DCC. activating them with a switch on a panel rather than which way the point was set.

That was "as required" for me & left me with a layout which worked quite well. The fact that it could have a DCC system & have locos sitting in sidings with lights on was something I never considered (or took advantage of).

[Pete the Elaner]

On 12/11/2021 at 23:45, kevinlms said:

I never understand this argument at all. Why is it OK to have intermittent shorts on DC - it ruins slow speed running, just as much as intermittent open circuits.

Why not modify ALL points for DC and DCC and be done with it?

 

I can understand people not modifying at all, if poor running doesn't bother them, but why a need to fix for DCC, but not DC?

 

Surely short circuits are always unwanted & best avoided?

The fact that with DC, you often get only a minor hesitation & a spark isn't a good reason for not bothering to avoid them if provided with a workable solution.

Isolating & re-feeding encourages smaller sections. These are easier to troubleshoot if something does go wrong.

[kevinlms]

On 29/11/2021 at 19:15, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Surely short circuits are always unwanted & best avoided?

The fact that with DC, you often get only a minor hesitation & a spark isn't a good reason for not bothering to avoid them if provided with a workable solution.

Isolating & re-feeding encourages smaller sections. These are easier to troubleshoot if something does go wrong.

I agree 100%, I personally don't want open or short circuits at all. If others want 'glowing rail joiners', or 'touchy points', then that is up to them, but not on my layout!