3 Rail on Inset Rails

[wollastonblue]

I have just purchased the Peco Conductor chairs in order to start the laying of the 3rd rail on my layout. While the paint is drying on the parts, I just wondered if anyone had any advice on placing the chairs on inset track. I just want to electrify one of the siding so that I can stable an EMU while other services come and go.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[cromptonnut]

When you say 'inset track' do you mean "in the road" like, say, the Weymouth quay branch?

 

If so, I'd say third rail and that was a definite no-no.

 

Or am I confusing your terminology?

[RedgateModels]

I think the prospect of someone driving a road vehicle or worst still walking over a 3rd rail enbedded in the surface is giving me the heebie jeebies as we speak

 

Actually, thinking about it the current would have shorted to ground way before any poor soul got near it ....

[wollastonblue]

I was thinking of putting one on this siding like this red line:

[jamie92208]

I'm not an expert on the Southern but I would agree that 3rd rail on inset track is a no no. Track was only inset to allow road vehicles to drive on the same area so the 3rd rail is out. The SR got overt this at Folkestone by building the MLV's tnhat hd traction batteries as wella s pick up shoes. They could then shunt the trains on the no electrified bit. It could be a good excuse fir building an MLV and using it as a shunter like the preserved railways do.

 

Jamie

[Trains4U]

No, definitely not.

 

From my own limited experience, In servicing depots, there would be an overhead gantry arrangement with a small trolly, the power would be put through the gantry, and a cable hanging down from the trolley would be attached to the collector shoe of the unit, allowing the unit to move under its own power within the length of the shed (that is what is in Fratton at least)

 

I doubt it would be used outdoors though.

[DonB]

From the depths of my ignorance of things "Southern" and third rail, I would expect the live rail to be on the platform-side of the track, as there's a fence there already, and the storage / reception line to be not inlaid and to be fenced off from the rest of the yard. "'Elf & Safety" Rules OK!! Having got your loco in for stabling, how do the crew get off safely? As I indicated...what do I know???

[wollastonblue]

Looking at google earth, unfortunately you can't get in to that much detail, but it looks like they have some inset track at Selhurst Depot. What would they have done there?

 

Thanks for all the help, so far. It might save me a bit of pain anyway.

[Glorious NSE]

Don't think Selhurst has any "inset" trackage unless you mean the foot crossings in front of the shed doors - the third rail doesn't go across those.

 

If you look at the bing birds eye views they are fairly clear

 

 

[Glorious NSE]

Looking at your model I think I would go for pretty much what Don says.

 

Remove the concrete from between the rails and between the rail and the fence, leave the concrete to the left of the rails so it's still accessible to road vehicles, and then you are free to put the third rail up the fence side of the line with no conflict between people loading wagons and the third rail then.

[Edwin_m]

If it was for freight use you could install a bit of overhead line as fitted to several Southern Region goods yards when they electrified. But no good for stabling as EMUs don't have pans!

[noiseboy72]

I think Gareth is spot on.

...and it would make an interesting thing to model as well !

Most 3rd & 4th Rail stock has a connection box to terminate the trolley wires to. Take a look at London Underground Depot shots for more info. "Live" sidings have the live rail protected by wooden boxing and keeping walkways from running along electrified tracks.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Remember that EMU traffic was designed for rapid transit of people and very light newspaper or parcels traffic. The EMUs ran in parallel with steam for many years and freight traffic on the SR was actually quite light and confined to runs loaded into and out of London empty mostly on the main lines. Goods yards were never electrified and there was no practical mixing of goods sidings and EMU's as all the EMU's ran from dedicated depot to dedicated depot or parked up at a suburban terminus. Distances were relatively small and the EMU's ran at much higher speeds than any freight and there was some concern that some steam engines could damage the third rail. A great deal of this freight traffic ran at night and the pick up freight was virtually unheard of after the 1955 changes.

 

There has been much discussion elsewhere of parking EMUs and this was frequently done using diesel shunters. These were available in small numbers from the thirties onward. Recall that the 09 shunter was invented for SR stock movements from Waterloo and that Bulleid designed a couple of these shunters during his tenure at the Southern. Some yards had the overhead wires and trolley and any third rail location that had a foot crossing would have had the wooden boxing of the third rail but any public access would require a break in the third rail for the total width at level crossings and the like.

 

The third rail was always mounted at the outside at platforms. It was never inset as this would not be feasible. The third rail surface was/is always higher than the running rail.

 

Great care was taken to ensure that workers were not required to walk about or otherwise get close to third rails unless they were boxed and to be fair there was little need. Cleaners had those little narrow concrete ramps and drivers had sort of break points to park and walk to clock off. The guard would nearly always join the train at it's first stop. Frequently, when shedding these units one would park with it's rear collectors just on the juice and any further units would couple up and push the unit further into the shed. Remember that the space between front and rear was about 120 feet and frequently twice that.

 

These EMU's were so reliable and maintenance free that scheduled maintenance was easily accomplished and often overnight.

[jazz]

The third rail would never be used where railway staff, ie shunters etc, or the public would have normal acess to.

 

When meeting a road crossing the third rail stops short yards before the crossing and continues yards after it. There are more than one pick skate per train. On third rail locos the momentum would keep the train moving over the gap.

 

Where shunting operations are carried out there would not be a third rail and conventional diesel electric units wouild be used.

[Ramblin Rich]

Somehat off the topic, I'm reminded of the Lorain system used by Wolverhampton Tramways in the early 1900's which is the only example of ground-level elecrical supply I know of. This used stud contacts between the rails for the electrical supply, which were activated by being "pulled up" by electromagnets on the tramcars. More info here

I've seen models based on the system which have the advantage of not needing aany overhead lines!

[Edwin_m]

The tramways in central London put their live rails in a buried conduit accessed via a slot in the road. Trams coming into the central area had to attach a "plough" which carried the pickups.

 

The French have recently invented a modern version of the Wolverhampton system. While the Wolverhampton studs were activated by magnets (and sometimes failed to "go dead" after the tram had moved on!) the new version has a sectioned live rail and each section is only energised when it is fully underneath the tram.

[Ramblin Rich]

The tramways in central London put their live rails in a buried conduit accessed via a slot in the road. Trams coming into the central area had to attach a "plough" which carried the pickups.

 

The French have recently invented a modern version of the Wolverhampton system. While the Wolverhampton studs were activated by magnets (and sometimes failed to "go dead" after the tram had moved on!) the new version has a sectioned live rail and each section is only energised when it is fully underneath the tram.

 

Oh yes, you've jolted my memory - now I remember some film footage of the plough being moved into place under a tram somewhere. Interesting info about the French system too...

[PhilJ W]

Somehat off the topic, I'm reminded of the Lorain system used by Wolverhampton Tramways in the early 1900's which is the only example of ground-level elecrical supply I know of. This used stud contacts between the rails for the electrical supply, which were activated by being "pulled up" by electromagnets on the tramcars. More info here

I've seen models based on the system which have the advantage of not needing aany overhead lines!

There was also the Dolter system (I think I've spelt it right) that was used in Hastings which was very similar. It also had similar problems with live studs. The solution was to trail a wire broom behind the tram that rung a bell when it came in contact with a live stud, the conductor was provided with a rubber mallet to deal with the offending stud.

 

 

 

[craigwelsh]

There was also the Dolter system (I think I've spelt it right) that was used in Hastings which was very similar. It also had similar problems with live studs. The solution was to trail a wire broom behind the tram that rung a bell when it came in contact with a live stud, the conductor was provided with a rubber mallet to deal with the offending stud.

Ace, public transport with `whack a mole` built in

 

With the next generation of very fast charging batteries we may end up going back to the sort of system where electric buses charge off stud points at each stop..

[jamie92208]

London also had a stud contact system somewhere in the easy end wioth similar problems with sticking studs. Blackpool alse started with the conduit system but found out that salt water spray from winter storms and 500v in an open pie under the road didn't mix so that had to re electrify using overhead. The Modern stud contact in Bordeaux is expensive but is apprently working well and has kept overheaqd out of the historic centre. With modern long trams there appear to be fiewr problems as I belive the front section energises the studs and the rear section switches them off leaving the centre sections to do the picking up.

 

Jamie

[Bulleidnutter]

"Goods yards were never electrified and there was no practical mixing of goods sidings and EMU's as all the EMU's ran from dedicated depot to dedicated depot or parked up at a suburban terminus."

 

Goods yards were electrified on the Southern. Hither Green yard was electrified, Norwood yard and a couple of other yards had overhead wires along with 3rd rail in some areas.