A P4'ed Stewart Reidpath 0-6-0T

[5050]

Following on from Barclay's thread on how he transformed his SR body into a 'Hudswell Clark' industrial, I was tempted into doing something similar to mine.  I acquired the body at Shipley exhibition a few years ago from a box of previously abused owned bits and pieces along with Graham Farish Black 5 and Merchant Navy bodies.  I was told that if they didn't sell they would be skipped - so I had to save them.  For those who don't know, SR were pioneers in 'small scale' railway modelling (ie, smaller than O gauge) in the 30's, 40's and early 50's.  They manufactured mechanisms and bodies in cast lead and the 0-6-0 tank was one of them.  It is basically a generic 0-6-0T but, to me, it has a strong flavour of LSWR G6 class.  SR were, I think, an early proponent of HO gauge rather than OO and so this body seems to be a little small for OO which helps in its pretending to be a possible industrial loco.  Being solid lead it is rather heavy and should do well in the haulage stakes.  Not that I'll ever have a layout large enough to test it to the ultimate!

 

Barclay's thread here -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/159604-hawthorn-leslie-0-6-0t-more-or-less/page/2/

 

Doing this in P4 (and using some of the items I've had 'in stock' for years) is a bit of light relief from following an actual prototype.  Some of the parts used are a bit 'blacksmith technology' compared to current thinking but it all adds to the sense of making the proverbial silk purse etc.  Once completed (well, if it gets that far....) it will represent the kind of loco that could have been found on an extensive industrial system which incorporated some 'main line' elements (eg Pensnett Railway) or even a light railway.

 

Here are the basic elements of the build.  The chassis is a TMD etch acquired in a bin of etches at a show.  It is for an Irish prototype, the overall length of the frames and wheelbase is a very good fit.  Wheels are some Alan Gibson 4'7.5" Pannier Tank wheels and the motor (and here is the 'blacksmith' part) is a DS10 with an etched 'gearbox' and 50:1 gears.  It has a flywheel fitted and, on initial test, ran very smoothly.  I'll give it a good clean before final fitting.  Boiler fittings are from my 'stash' of parts that have accumulated over the years.  From whence they came and what they are I don't really know (or even care TBH) as they seem to fit OK and be in proportion to the body.  To reach the correct buffer height I will need to file off 1 - 1.5mm from the top edge of the side frames.

 

 

 

Since taking the above photos I found a cab roof in The Stash which, in my opinion anyway, will enhance the rather bland cab's appearance.  The smokebox door will be fitted with a wheel fastener rather than handles and I will need to source (or make) steps and tank fillers.

 

 

The casting has a large area of solid lead each end behind the buffer beams.  This needs removing/reducing to allow the new chassis to fit.  Barclay dremelled his away with a large burr - which I didn't have - so I cut my excess away with a combination of sharpened jewellers screwdriver and small chisels.

 

 

Whether or not I will be able to use the chassis attachment screwholes I am yet to find out.  This will depend on the frame spacers I am able to use from the varied collection in The Stash.

 

The next exciting installment will possibly be the filing of the sideframes and the assembly of the basic chassis.  Don't go away!

 

Well, not to far anyway........................

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by 5050

[Barclay]

Looking forward to seeing this go together. Cab roof looks great. There is something very satisfying in taking something that was made maybe 70, or even 80+ years ago, and finally using it for its intended purpose. How many modellers' drawers and cupboards has that sat in before finally ending up with you? I think about such things - I don't know why !

[Mrkirtley800]

You have brought back memories.  I had one in the 1950s, complete with motor and frames.  It had, as far as I remember, spur bear drive, with a Romford seven pole motor, and very fine wheels, and took some stopping.

A very reliable engine.

I wish I knew what happened to it.

Derek

[5050]

On 06/12/2021 at 16:39, Barclay said:

Looking forward to seeing this go together. Cab roof looks great. There is something very satisfying in taking something that was made maybe 70, or even 80+ years ago, and finally using it for its intended purpose. How many modellers' drawers and cupboards has that sat in before finally ending up with you? I think about such things - I don't know why !

It certainly is a bit battered has some patina and, some might say, perhaps a bit to far gone.  However, being lead, it can be 'massaged' back into shape in some ways.  What that shape might eventually be is another question!  As and when (if!) it gets finished and on public display (if ever!) and anyone comments on its appearance or provenance in a negative way then the reply will be short and not very sweet

[Tim V]

DS10 - very high revving motor - still it's probably 30 years newer than the loco body ...

[Pierview]

I can recall that John Charman had a couple of these finished in Southern livery on early versions of his  famous Charford  branch. In his locomotive list he described them as G6 class (nearly!) 

 

Barry

[SuperD]

I'm pleased to have spotted this thread.  I acquired a 4f body in a job lot that I bought.  I'm new to the hobby (CV19) and I wondered why it was too small to fit a Comet chassis.

It weighs a ton and the only use I can think of for it is doorstop!

Edited January 1, 2022 by SuperD
.

[5050]

Hello everybody!  Yes, I'm still here and workingon this (occasionally rather frustrating!) project.  So, get comfortable, make a brew with some McVities (other brands are available) suggestive biscuits and read on.  As its been a few weeks since I posted here I'm not sure how far I got but here goes!

 

The chassis was solderd together using some Alan Gibson P4 spacers which are 15mm wide.  My assembly 'jigs' are 14.5mm so I needed to pack them out slightly.

 

 

The compensated axle holes were slotted out to fit hornguides from Perseverance with Branchlines axleboxes.   The fixed axle was treated to my usual brass tube and wire technique so it can be removed during construction.

 

 

Coupling rods were soldered up from a set of Alan Gibson Universal ones.  The kit ones were very flimsy and didn't have the joint represented in the etching.

 

 

Hornguides were soldered in place using a set of original Perseverance jigs. Notch markings can be seen on the edges of the bearings and hornguides to ensure they always match up and orientate the same way.  I had to rub these down on emery later to allow side play in the centre and front axles.  Without doing this the wheels would not have fitted!  The fixed axle bearings were filed so that there was a minimum of sideplay to ensure the gears meshed OK.

 

 

A close up of the axlebox and hornguide markings so that they always go back in the same place and orientation.

 

 

The compensation beam was fitted but not as yet secured.

 

 

A pair of firebox sides was made from some scrap surplus etchings from an old kit.  A spacer was also fitted for reinforcement as the sides are half etched and very thin.

 

 

Wheels mounted on axles and trial fitted.

 

 

As there was insufficient depth to solder in a spacer for attaching a keeper plate for the wheels I attached a keeper to the underside of the compensating beam assembly.  It is screwed into a small piece of 1/16" brass soldered to the bottom of the beam.  I found a piece of scrap etching from the Perseverance hornguide etch which was a perfect fit.  Very apt!

 

 

Sections of small brass angle were soldered to the inside of the tops of the frame sides to support strips of thin copperclad sleeper strip for attaching pickup wires.  The copperclad was Araldited in place and the 0.3mm nickel silver wire pickups soldered on to bear on the tops of the wheels.  The frames are not deep enough to fit a spacer for bottom pickups.  The thick wire with insulation is a torque retainer to prevent the motor from rotating under power.  The leads to the motor will be shortened for the final assembly.  the eagle-eyed may notice that the motor has been changed for one without a flywheel.  The original didn't seem to like working when under power in the chassis.  The front spacer was drilled a hole for an 8BA fixing screw to fit into an already tapped hole in the body casting.  The bottom photo shows the brake hangers attached.

 

 

A trial fit into the body prior to rather a lot of fettling to rods and crankpin bearings.

 

 

I generally drill my rods to 1.5mm for AG bearings and give them a gentle reaming for a nice fit prior to final assembly.  The latest pack of AG bearings and crankpins I opened seem to be 1.6mm diameter so I needed to run a suitable size drill through again and even ream a bit more to get a good fit. I have to say that the DS10 motor and Romford gearing is nowhere near as smooth and efficient as a modern can and High Level box but it does work and may improve with running.

 

I had to carve quite a bit of lead away in places to get better clearance and fit.  This was done mainly with a small sharp chisel, smoothed off with the edge of a steel ruler to get a flat surface.  Subsequent to this photo the inside of the front splashers have been relieved of a fair bit of material to ensure a good clearance for the front wheel pickup wires.

 

 

Next job is to paint the chassis and then get on with detailing the body a bit.  I still need to get steps and tank fillers which I can possibly obtain from SE Finecast from their G6 kit.

 

Hope your tea hasn't gone cold after reading this lot!

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

5050

 

Thank you for this thread, I have one of these locos with a 3 rail chassis, however a great bit of chassis building, not only very timely but very instructive, thank you

[5050]

20 hours ago, hayfield said:

5050

 

Thank you for this thread, I have one of these locos with a 3 rail chassis, however a great bit of chassis building, not only very timely but very instructive, thank you

Do you have any photos of the chassis?  'Old Skool' commercial running gear always fascinates me - but then I'm easily pleased....

[hayfield]

56 minutes ago, 5050 said:

Do you have any photos of the chassis?  'Old Skool' commercial running gear always fascinates me - but then I'm easily pleased....

 

 

I have totally forgotten the manufacturer, but it has a (hard) cast body, turned brass buffers, funnel, dome and safety valves

 

Standard skate for 3 rail operation, the chassis has Eames ? wheels

 

 

No idea about the mechanism, for some reason the centre drivers have extended coupling rods, was there a version with pistons ?

 

 

TT bullhead rail for coupling rods

 

Thought about making it 2 rail, but certainly it will loose its charm and would it look ang good if I did

[alastairq]

3 rail?

Or, stud contact, with that long skate?

[hayfield]

I will leave that up to those who know

[5050]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

I will leave that up to those who know

A long one piece 'skate' generally means it was made for stud contact but will/should/might work on 3-rail as well.  I think that is a standard Stewart Reidpath mechanism which might have been fitted to all manner of 0-6-0 locos - including outside cylinder ones hence the extended crank pin.  Conversion to 2-rail would not be easy and its originality would be lost.  More desirable as is IMHO.  My body seems to be 100% lead and is very soft, easily damaged by even quite innocuous knocks when on the workbench hence its very 'distressed patina'.  I think that even a coat of paint will be harder!

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 5050 said:

A long one piece 'skate' generally means it was made for stud contact but will/should/might work on 3-rail as well.  I think that is a standard Stewart Reidpath mechanism which might have been fitted to all manner of 0-6-0 locos - including outside cylinder ones hence the extended crank pin.  Conversion to 2-rail would not be easy and its originality would be lost.  More desirable as is IMHO.  My body seems to be 100% lead and is very soft, easily damaged by even quite innocuous knocks when on the workbench hence its very 'distressed patina'.  I think that even a coat of paint will be harder!

 

 

Much as I thought, but mine is not cast in soft metal, more like the stuff Dinky, Corgi and Matchbox were made of.

 

Any idea of the origin of the body please

[5050]

Yes, Stewart Reidpath I would presume, one of the early proponents of small scale (ie 3.5 and/or 4mm) modelling before the war and who lasted into the 50's at least.  Probably info. on them in the Collectable/Vintage section on here.

Edited January 20, 2022 by 5050

[Barclay]

That's definitely the standard S-R body and that Southern livery really suits it. The material used is interesting as mine, too is soft metal, almost certainly lead, but perhaps they used Mazac or similar at an earlier (or later) date? Just a thought - you could build an alternative 2 rail chassis so the loco is usable but keep the 3 rail version unmodified so it could be converted back if required?

[5050]

Work has continued, a little slowly at times, but there is progress.

 

First I thought I should show the amount of metal I've finally removed from the underside of the body.  The white plastic piece at the rear is a 'tongue' for the rear spacer to fit under.  It is the same width as the inside of the frames to hold them in proper alignment, the front having a screw fixing into the body.

 

 

When looking at the body as a whole I realised how bad it is in place with dents and scratches all over.  I decided to try and tidy it up a bit with some thin brass overlays from 10thou sheet as follows.

 

First was the front spectacle/cab front plate.  The cast cab windows are very poor and 'deep' so I enlarged them with a scalpel and filed up a piece of the brass to fit.  The window surrounds are from a Mainly Trains (Wizard) etch.  They were soldered in place and look much better than the casting.

 

 

The same was done with the rear of the cab but here I had to hack away some of the cast 'coal' to get a good fit.

 

 

And with the proposed cab roof in place.

 

 

I had seen on Barclay's thread that he had made and fitted a rivetted wrapper for the smokebox.  The edges of my smokebox are rather 'distressed' so I thought I would have a go at making one myself.  I made a template from paper and transferred the shape onto the brass.  Rivets were marked out along the edges (nothing scientific, I just spaced them as I thought fit!) using an old gramophone needle in a pin-chuck and gently tapped with a small hammer on my cutting mat.

 

 

The buffer beams are also a bit 'rough' so, after looking through my books I decided to make a pair of beams as well.  I had a length of brass which was the depth I wanted so I soldered a length of wire along one edge to represent the edge of the footplate.  The cast edge was filed away on the body.  Holes were marked and drilled for buffers (more on these some time later), indents sawn out at the ends and a coupling plate from an old etch soldered on.  The wire was filed flat and 'square' to appear more like a sheet metal edge.  Rivet heads were embossed in strategic places as for the smokebox wrapper.  (Checking the posted photos I realise I've missed a row on the right hand edge of the top beam!)

 

 

I've also found some items to use for the bits I was missing such as steps and tank fillers.  Trouble is there were only 3 steps and 1 tank filler!  I've made replicas of these and the tank filler(s) are here.  It is made using plasticard of varying thicknes with a lot of patient and careful filing to get the right shape.  It's not perfect but once it's fitted and painted I doubt it will notice.

 

 

The chassis has also been painted and needs reassembly.  Next main job will be sticking all these bits above in place (plus the chimney, dome and safety valves) along with fabricating a couple of more 'add-ons' I've thought about.  'Proper' Araldite will be the glue of choice - so it will take a couple of days or so for all of them to be attached.

 

The next photo should have been place further up the post but it shows the Mainly Trains etch with the front spectacle plate.  A very useful bit of etching!

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by 5050

[hayfield]

Looking very good, It makes a very pleasant change to see some model making. Please keep the updates coming

[crackedmember]

On 21/01/2022 at 09:06, Barclay said:

That's definitely the standard S-R body and that Southern livery really suits it. The material used is interesting as mine, too is soft metal, almost certainly lead, but perhaps they used Mazac or similar at an earlier (or later) date? Just a thought - you could build an alternative 2 rail chassis so the loco is usable but keep the 3 rail version unmodified so it could be converted back if required?

These locos were available in 2 and 3 (centre or outside) rail versions.  Not sure about stud contact, but would not be surprised.   The wheels look original.

 

The skate seems to be of the type described by John H Ahern in his book. 

 

S-R supplied these chassis effectively to order in large no  of differing wheelbases and wheel diametre in 0-4-0, 0-6-0, 0-8-0, and 0-10-0 forms, current collection 2 or 3 rail.  There was a special one for 0-4-4's.

 

 

 

[5050]

The saga continues!  Plenty of work has been occuring over the last couple of weeks, some of it positive, some rather negative.  This has definitely been a '3 steps forward, 2 steps back' affair!

 

The new parts were Araldited in place with the body orientated to allow gravity to do its job.  Firebox wrapper was attached separately and then front bufferbeam, cab front and smokebox door.   Next was rear bufferbeam and cab back.  Real Araldite was used for all of them.  The short length of tube projecting from the smokbox door is for the handwheel to be attached.

 

 

Rear bufferbeam with hook soldered on.  The tail fits into a slot cut into the beam and will be well filled with Araldite.  A similar slot was also cut into the front.

 

 

 

I had made up some coal rails for the bunker top to avoid having to carve to much of the cast 'coal' away.  They are made up from some scraps of Evergreen 'siding', thinned around the top.

 

 

Cab roof and most of the boiler fittings now attached along with some nickel silver strips along the top edges of the tanks.  This is an attempt to tidy up yet another 'distressed' area of the casting.  Handrails are still to be fitted down from these strips into the footplate at the front of the tanks and also onto the boiler.

 

 

The steps were cleaned up a bit and a fourth one made up from some brass scraps.

 

 

Here it is nearing completion with only a couple of whistles to be fitted to the cab roof.  Buffers are a bit of an anachronism as they are actually BR Oleo ones intended for main line diesels but I have several sets and I wanted buffers of a reasonably large diameter.  Their bases are squares of plasticard.  Handwheel is attached to the smokebox door and handrails are fitted all round.  In the spirit of only using 'stuff from stock' the ones on the side of the smokebox are from an Airfix 14xx that was detailed some time ago.  There are also some tanks vents filed up from some whitemetal oddments I found in my stash.

 

 

It looks quite 'purposeful' - but it didn't translate that into performance sadly.  The chassis on its own was a bit jerky and occasionally just stopped for no apparent reason.  With the gear wheel unscrewed from the axle it was free running when pushed by hand but I stilI checked all the coupling rod and crankpin 'interfaces' and treated them to a very mild and gentle broaching but there was little improvement under power.  Fitting the body meant that the power uptake was a lot higher than the chassis alone so I reckoned the motor may have been at fault.  I swopped one DS10 motor for another but there was little improvement.  A bigger motor was probably needed with a bit more guts - but it would have to fit into the DS10 etched mount that was fitted.  I wasn't prepared to remove the wheels (they never go back on right) to fit another type (such as a High Level - which would also have meant BUYING something new!!) so I tried motors (mainly Sagami cans) out of my stash and none of them - apart from an Anchoridge D11 - appeared even remotely possible.  However, the D11 has fixing holes along its underside to attach to spacers and the DS10 etched 'gearbox' has them at the front above and below the shaft.  The DS10 shaft (and therefore the worm gear) is 1.5mm and the D11 is 2mm.  I bit the bullet and turned up an 'adaptor' to allow the D11 to fit, soldering it to the front of the motor with Carr's 100 degree low melt to try and avoid over heating the motor parts.  As I didn't have a Romford worm with a 2mm bore for the gear ratio in use I bit another bullet and drilled the 1.5mm one out to 2mm on the lathe.  Thankfully it appears to have worked OK!  The adaptor has 2 x 10BA threaded holes top and bottom to attach to the gearbox but I have found that only the top one is required - and the bottom one is very difficult to fit in practice.

 

 

To enable the D11 to fit I had to shorten the shaft (using diamond files) and remove the brake shoe cross wire and the original motor support spacer.  The rear of the motor now rests on the middle brake cross wire and is padded with small pieces of sticky back foam.  Another piece of this is stuck to the top of the motor as packing against the inside of the body shell.  Only one brush is insulated on the D11 motor so one pickup wire is soldered to the insulated brush and the other is soldered to a convenient place on the chassis (the rear spacer).

 

So far it runs a lot better with this motor than before but it still isn't as good as a can motor with HL box - but then it's all made from bits and pieces I had 'in stock' so all I've lost is some hair from when things didn't go exactly as 'planned' (if anything ever really was!).

 

Now for painting.  I've got an idea of the shade of Green I would like it to be and I might go and have a look in Games Workshop as I've had some very good opinions given on their paint quality.  Might be a while before it gets its paint, probably when to weather dries up somewhat!

 

EDIT - a duplication of photos has occurred - but the duplicate refuses to be dispensed with!  So, here you are, have another look for free!

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by 5050

[Barclay]

Looking superb - what a difference those improvements make.

[hayfield]

To enable the D11 to fit I had to shorten the shaft (using diamond files) and remove the brake shoe cross wire and the original motor support spacer.  The rear of the motor now rests on the middle brake cross wire and is padded with small pieces of sticky back foam.  Another piece of this is stuck to the top of the motor as packing against the inside of the body shell.  Only one brush is insulated on the D11 motor so one pickup wire is soldered to the insulated brush and the other is soldered to a convenient place on the chassis (the rear spacer).

 

So far it runs a lot better with this motor than before but it still isn't as good as a can motor with HL box - but then it's all made from bits and pieces I had 'in stock' so all I've lost is some hair from when things didn't go exactly as 'planned' (if anything ever really was!).

 

 

I wonder if you used one of the newer gearsets which has a smaller worm would improve the running, or as you have said use a High Level gearbox using a 2mm bush on the etched brass strap that fits across the end of High Level gearboxes. Some even glue cheap Chinese motors to High Level gearboxes

[5050]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

I wonder if you used one of the newer gearsets which has a smaller worm would improve the running, or as you have said use a High Level gearbox using a 2mm bush on the etched brass strap that fits across the end of High Level gearboxes. Some even glue cheap Chinese motors to High Level gearboxes

Doing all that would mean having to dismantle the existing gearing therefore having to remove the wheels from the axle.    Once they've been fitted and then removed, in my experience, they never go back on securely and can readily slip.  I know there are 'methods' supposed to overcome this but I've never managed to get them to work.  It would also mean having to buy something new and the project is based on using up bits and pieces already 'in stock'.  I reckon that an extended period of running would improve matters - but I currently don't have a suitable layout on which to do this.  A bit more 'bench running' is all I can manage at present.

[5050]

In a fit of mental awareness I realised that, although the worm and gear are a 'set' (ie - they've been together for a while in a previous incarnation) they may not be in the same 'orientation' due to the gear wheel being turned in the gearbox during re-assembly.  I therefore removed the worm and refitted it the other way round - and it now seems to run appreciably better and slightly less noisily.  Compared to modern gearing from High Level, Romford gears (and brass ones in general) tend to be more noisy anyway so anything is an improvement!  In an exhibition a lot of the noise tends to disappear into the general background noise so I'm not to bothered overall.