FO / RhB Panorama Coaches

[Keith Addenbrooke]

In the question I posed last night on FO Tunnel Motors (separate thread), I mentioned questions I have on the metre-gauge Panorama coaches.  I hope it’s OK to post this as a separate thread, as I’ve received the info I was hoping for on the Tunnel Motors:

 

I’m starting at a very basic level, but after watching videos of Panorama coaches while looking longingly at Kato RhB trains, I’ve got some questions I’m wondering about: it may be they’ve been answered before and I’ve not found the right thread (if so, please may I apologise and ask for directions again?)

 

1.  It’s been explained that the Panorama coaches originated on the MOB, appearing on the FO / BVZ from the 1990s.  As I understand it, the first BVZ and FO Panorama coaches were built by Breda in 1993?  I think I’ve read they weren’t just used on the Glacier Express, and would appear in other consists too, but I’ve not come across photos / online video yet?  I’m wondering what other coaches they appeared with - and might they even have appeared in the mixed trains / passenger trains with tail traffic?

 

2.  If I’ve got the dates right, the RhB didn’t have their own Panorama coaches until later, but I don’t know if they were different (Stadler 2006?).  Looking at the haribu.ch website, I think it tells me EW 4 coaches on the RhB date from 1993 so was that their new stock then?  (Please note, I don’t know the difference between generations of EW coaches, and do please correct the mistakes I’m making: there will be many).

 

4.  I think I’ve read here on RMWeb that the white / flag livery for the GEX dates from around 2005? Logic - which is not always reliable - suggests to me that fixed rake consists would have been part of this development (from a branding point of view), and I’d also suspect that the transition period for the repaint was shorter than the wholesale green - red transition period for regular coaches and locomotives, which I believe was spread over many years (decades?).

 

5.  I’m not very good with colours, but I think there has been a shift towards a lighter red in coach liveries across the FO / MGB / RhB over the years - in terms of regular coaches that may have appeared with Panorama coaches, this suggests another mixture? (I don’t know if green coaches and Panorama coaches overlapped).

 

Sorry, a pile of rather random questions.  I’m not including the Bernina line Panorama coaches, which to me look different (with curved upper sections to continuous windows), just the more angular ones.  I was told earlier this year that Swiss railways do ‘suck you in’ - I can see why 😀.  Thanks, Keith.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
(Typo Correction)

[Glorious NSE]

>>>1.  It’s been explained that the Panorama coaches originated on the MOB, appearing on the FO / BVZ from the 1990s.  As I understand it, the first BVZ and FO Panorama coaches were built by Breda in 1993?  I think I’ve read they weren’t just used on the Glacier Express, and would appear in other consists too, but I’ve not come across photos / online video yet?  I’m wondering what other coaches they appeared with - and might they even have appeared in the mixed trains / passenger trains with tail traffic?

My impression (happy to be corrected) is that the GEX didn't run as a discrete panoramic service back then, but there were through trains, with a mix of normal and panoramic coaches.

There's some vid on YouTube from very early MGB days showing trains with a mix of stock from the constituents, plus RhB all running through together - have a look through the vids from:
https://www.youtube.com/user/REOSRailway

2.  If I’ve got the dates right, the RhB didn’t have their own Panorama coaches until later, but I don’t know if they were different (Stadler 2006?).  Looking at the haribu.ch website, I think it tells me EW 4 coaches on the RhB date from 1993 so was that their new stock then?  (Please note, I don’t know the difference between generations of EW coaches, and do please correct the mistakes I’m making: there will be many).

The Stadler and Breda builds are different.  The best spotting feature personally is if you look at the ends of the roof, the modern Stadler stock is flat, the Breda cars slope down slightly - Breda car here with a Stadler on the right and left.



I don't believe RhB owned any Breda cars originally, but aquired some later (now the 525xx series) - the Innotren car is also a Breda.

4.  I think I’ve read here on RMWeb that the white / flag livery for the GEX dates from around 2005? Logic - which is not always reliable - suggests to me that fixed rake consists would have been part of this development (from a branding point of view), and I’d also suspect that the transition period for the repaint was shorter than the wholesale green - red transition period for regular coaches and locomotives, which I believe was spread over many years (decades?).

That's logical to me - the large build of Stadler cars allowed them to move the long distance tourist traffic towards through panoramic trains, and split the rest of the traffic up into manageable chunks, the new livery was part of the branding of that. 

Even then the through blocks of panoramic cars seem to have been added to RhB trains on the Albula at least, them running as completely separate services right through seems to have been post 2015 or so.

I would also presume the existing Breda cars were reliveried and some of them moved to RhB as part of the same project.

[chb2488]

Question 1: Prior to the FO/BVZ Breda cars, there was an order for Ramseier & Jenzer bodied panorama cars. Wikipedia has an entry on panorama coaches which may prove useful: 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panoramawagen_(Schweiz,_Schmalspur)

 

Question 2: According to my understanding, the 2006 Bernina Express sets were the first panorama coaches delivered to the RhB. SBB Brünig reveived the (only) two EW IV panorma coaches to be built.

 

Edit: Typo…

Edited December 14, 2021 by chb2488

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Thank you @Glorious NSE and @chb2488; two really useful responses and plenty of videos to watch (that ought to keep me quiet till after Christmas!).  No surprise I’m missing out on some quality online information because of my lack of German - at our School there was a timetable clash that meant I couldn’t take German as well as Woodwork and Technical Drawing: something to work on!  Thanks again, Keith.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Gordonwis]

14 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

 

1.  It’s been explained that the Panorama coaches originated on the MOB, appearing on the FO / BVZ from the 1990s.  As I understand it, the first BVZ and FO Panorama coaches were built by Breda in 1993?  I think I’ve read they weren’t just used on the Glacier Express, and would appear in other consists too, but I’ve not come across photos / online video yet?  I’m wondering what other coaches they appeared with - and might they even have appeared in the mixed trains / passenger trains with tail traffic?

 

2.  If I’ve got the dates right, the RhB didn’t have their own Panorama coaches until later, but I don’t know if they were different (Stadler 2006?).  Looking at the haribu.ch website, I think it tells me EW 4 coaches on the RhB date from 1993 so was that their new stock then?

 

Without going into book-length chapter and verse on a very complex subject, here's a few facts:

 

As on the standard gauge, Swiss narrow gauge EW (Einheitswagen = standard coaches) coaches have been built in different versions and batches (between 1962 and 1994). The last version was 31 EWIV aka PA90 (all but 2 for RhB )

 

Non-Bernina  Panorama (Pano) coaches on the 'red ng network' ie FO/BVZ/MGB/RhB arrived in 1993, known as the 'Breda' . They all belonged to the BVZ and FO, later MGB. Three of these  MGB vehicles were later sold to RhB.

 

From 1993 - 2005, the MGB  Breda panos ran in any train they wanted to put them in, but definitely they introduced the 'panoramic' element to the Glacier Express which as I said before up until then ran as a train of 'ordinary' coaches (ie a mix of FO/BVZ/RhB) 

 

With the decision to make the Glacier Express (GEX) a 'separate' train MGB and RhB jointly ordered the Stadler GEX Pano  stock, delivered in 2006. When the full peak summer GEX service is in operation (sadly not since 2019...) these coaches are intended to run as 'fixed' rakes of six coaches:  3x2nd, 1 x bar, 2 x 1st . This is the only stock to have the 'large flag' design which is intended to suit the fixe rake idea above. Transition from green to red livery is irrelevant here as the green had long gone from RhB by 2006.

 

Regarding running in 'odd' formations, the RhB is famous for 'chucking whatever it likes' into train rakes, so yes you can see a Panoramic coach in the same train as other types of coach and also freight wagons.

 

I've got 100s of my own photos that would illustrate all this but it's expedient to use Haribu shots, for example:

 

This 2004 Haribu shot is instructive: MGB Breda pano with other MGB and RhB coaches, not clearly noted, but I assume this to be a Glacier Express

http://www.haribu.ch/coppermine/albums/Bilder hochladen/RhB 2004/2004-05-25%2C_Da-Su-Komp.jpg

 

It would be a good idea to leave well alone the question of EW in relation to Panorama coaches 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

11 hours ago, Glorious NSE said:

Even then the through blocks of panoramic cars seem to have been added to RhB trains on the Albula at least, them running as completely separate services right through seems to have been post 2015 or so.

 

 

Yes, for a number of years the GEX rakes were doubled up with the regular IR working between Chur and St Moritz

[Gordonwis]

Here is one of my photos (from my wife and I's 'phew that was lucky timing' tour in February 2020  to Graubunden...)

 

This photo shows the random way the 'fixed formation' GEX Panos are used by RhB in winter (train arriving at Kublis, where we were staying)

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

8 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

It would be a good idea to leave well alone the question of EW in relation to Panorama coaches 

Thankyou Gordon once again - all the information above is really helpful and very clearly explained for a novice like me, which is much appreciated.

 

I suppose one helpful aspect of such enquiries is that the photogenic nature of the network means there is an abundance of great pictures that explain things, particularly once the terminology is explained to help refine searches (I don’t think a field trip would be an option for me, I’m afraid).

 

Makes me wonder how many model railways include a figure of a photographer on Station platforms - it must be a common sight in reality?

 

Don’t worry - I’m not planning to dive into EW classifications next: I think my brain is full for a bit now.  A logical follow-up question from a railway modelling point of view however would be: Kato N or Bemo H0m (or both)…?

…but that would be a different discussion altogether.

 

Thanks again, Keith.

[Gordonwis]

15 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

 

Makes me wonder how many model railways include a figure of a photographer on Station platforms - it must be a common sight in reality?

 

 A logical follow-up question from a railway modelling point of view however would be: Kato N or Bemo H0m (or both)…?

 1) Mine does! My wife gleefully painted up a commercially available Preiser N figure (featuring a gentleman with a jacket and camera) as me as it wasn't a bad likeness! I put it on all my layouts, often near the level crossing which is always a feature of my layouts as I have sat near so many of them over the years when driving in Europe

 

2) Depends on what space you have. I started collecting HOm but I haven't really got the space to build a layout to do it justice. Hence why I switched to the N gauge version as soon as it became available.  

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 16/12/2021 at 00:36, Gordonwis said:

2) Depends on what space you have. I started collecting HOm but I haven't really got the space to build a layout to do it justice. Hence why I switched to the N gauge version as soon as it became available.  

 

Good point - there are some fantastic examples here on RMWeb and elsewhere of Swiss metre-gauge layouts using the smaller scale to run longer trains and create impressive scenery (a key consideration with this subject).  I'm just musing, but I'd agree space can be a bigger issue than cost when making choices - individual models may be cheaper in smaller scales, but as layout capacity increases that can balance out the budget equation (my own budget is equally limited in all scales).

 

My first (unfinished) layout was in N, but that was forty years ago, when my eyesight was better - and I was smaller 😀.  I'm not sure how I'd get on with it now?  I then spent thirty years playing with British OO (four more unfinished layouts, incl. two hardly started).  This year I've done a little bit in H0e, and I have found 9mm track, wheelsets and bogies (etc) take a bit of getting used to again!  When I tried swapping Kato N-Scale sprung couplings for H0e couplings on an 11-110 chassis I ended up making rather a bodge of it (confession fully documented in my Narrow Gauge Thread).  

 

While a lot can be bought r-t-r in Nm9, I am aware that even within the Kato range there are different types of coupling, as noted here in the Kato GEX and the future thread, so for an inexperienced modeller like myself that'd be a consideration - or are the Kato products designed so the close couplers can be easily swapped for the standard 'Arnold' N, or vice versa? (I wouldn't fancy my chances trying out the Micro-trains coupler modification, based on my experience described above).

 

On 16/12/2021 at 00:36, Gordonwis said:

 1) Mine does! My wife gleefully painted up a commercially available Preiser N figure (featuring a gentleman with a jacket and camera) as me as it wasn't a bad likeness! I put it on all my layouts, often near the level crossing which is always a feature of my layouts as I have sat near so many of them over the years when driving in Europe.

 

Full credit to your wife for being able to paint a recognisable figure in such a small size - Wow!

 

It is a relevant point for this thread - empty panorama coaches do look rather obviously empty in any scale, so I can see why people are added (I've seen the ready made replacement interiors that include people)...or model a coach yard 😋.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[PeterStiles]

re "or are the Kato products designed so the close couplers can be easily swapped for the standard 'Arnold' N, or vice versa?"

 

I bought the yellow open observation car and was disappointed that it had the close-coupling type installed as standard.

But it came with the "Arnold " couplings, so I got the high-magnification glasses and tugged everything apart and pushed it all back together and lo and behold! There it was able to couple to me GEX...

 

Then I dropped it on the floor and the bits went everywhere.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 16/12/2021 at 11:56, PeterStiles said:

re "or are the Kato products designed so the close couplers can be easily swapped for the standard 'Arnold' N, or vice versa?"

 

I bought the yellow open observation car and was disappointed that it had the close-coupling type installed as standard.

But it came with the "Arnold " couplings, so I got the high-magnification glasses and tugged everything apart and pushed it all back together and lo and behold! There it was able to couple to me GEX...

 

Then I dropped it on the floor and the bits went everywhere.

Thank you for sharing the story.  
 

For anyone like me it really does gives a helpful insight: I don’t do enough fine work - in any sense of the phrase 🤣 - to justify investing in the kind of kit that helps with those jobs (eg: hands free magnifying glasses).  Close up photos are now so good I don’t always appreciate how small some things are.

 

But on the other hand, I can see the attraction of running full length Panorama coach Glacier Express sets on a home layout…

 

Thanks once again to all, Keith.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Gordonwis]

2 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Thank you for sharing the story.  
 

For anyone like me it really does gives a helpful insight: I don’t do enough fine work - in any sense of the phrase  - to justify investing in the kind of kit that helps with those jobs (eg: hands free magnifying glasses).  Close up photos are now so good I don’t always appreciate how small some things are.

 

But on the other hand, I can see the attraction of running full length Panorama coach Glacier Express sets on a home layout…

 

Thanks once again to all, Keith.

 

 

The Kato stuff started out as all 'Arnold' type couplers, then they brought out the close coupling (and shorter corridor connectors) set as a 'spare part' for retrofitting if so desired by the modeller. The benefit of the the close couplings is they look more like a real life narrow gauge auto coupler, and they give a much smaller gap between coaches which does improve the appearance of a full GEX consist. As such I have one full Glacier Express set with short couplings and one full set still with Arnold couplings.

 

Assuming on might get some new and some second hand, the current situation is that some Kato (and other manufacturers eg MDS and artisans) stuff comes with Arnold couplings and some with close couplings.

 

As the Japanese refuse to adopt NEM pockets, swapping couplings requires a bit of time and effort sadly.

 

My approach is to work with both and - as has been the case in many scales over the years - have certain vehicles fitted with one of each type . This minimises the amount of coupling swaps I need to undertake. I have fitted several of my locos with one of each type as well so can pretty much run all my stock with a bit of juggling. 

 

If using mainly bogie stock, as the couplings on most of the readily available items are integral with the bogies, once you have a certain number of bogies fitted with each type, you can just switch the bogies, which is far quicker to do.

[PeterStiles]

Of course, my wife did come running to see what all my shouting was.

 

"I'VE FOUND A SPRING!"

 

The elation at locating a spring that's so small I can't even measure it caused me to evince such sheer jubilation she thought I'd hurt myself. If I could dance I'd have danced a little jig; however I was still trying to locate the other pieces so sharp movements seemed a bad idea.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

10 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

As the Japanese refuse to adopt NEM pockets, swapping couplings requires a bit of time and effort sadly.

Thanks Gordon - as with everyone’s contributions in the thread, this nugget of information is really helpful: I didn’t know this (having only played with a chassis), but suggests it’s not likely to change.  Thanks, Keith.

[jonhall]

When I did the Glacier express from StMoritz in 2007, we were the 8.01 departure, and were at the bufferstops end of a platform that also held the 8.02 non-GEX departure - but that was alright, because the two trains left coupled to each other!

 

At Chur there was a shuffle, and the ex-StMoritz and ExDavos portions were swapped over, so we left for Disentis as 2x Glacier sets in one train, followed by 2x EW1 sets a few minutes later. I think we were probably re-split at Disentis for the MOB, but by that time the soporific nature of the worlds slowest express meant a sleeper would have been more appropriate than panoramic coach.

 

I personally prefer the opening window EW's over the Panoramic coaches, I found on a sunny day there just wasn't much relief from the sun.

 

Jon

[Gordonwis]

11 hours ago, jonhall said:

When I did the Glacier express from StMoritz in 2007, we were the 8.01 departure, and were at the bufferstops end of a platform that also held the 8.02 non-GEX departure - but that was alright, because the two trains left coupled to each other!

 

At Chur there was a shuffle, and the ex-StMoritz and ExDavos portions were swapped over, so we left for Disentis as 2x Glacier sets in one train, followed by 2x EW1 sets a few minutes later. I think we were probably re-split at Disentis for the MOB, but by that time the soporific nature of the worlds slowest express meant a sleeper would have been more appropriate than panoramic coach.

 

I personally prefer the opening window EW's over the Panoramic coaches, I found on a sunny day there just wasn't much relief from the sun.

 

Jon

 

 

Have you got the year correct? This sequence is not shown in the 2007 timetable, when the first Glacier Express working from St Moritz wasn't scheduled to depart until 09.01, and at Chur the Davos Glacier Express should have been 30 minutes behind. Alternatively, maybe you left St Moritz at 10.01?

 

As previously mentioned at that time RhB ran most GEXs coupled to RE sets so that does make sense. However there was no EW set scheduled to run Chur - Disentis just behind a GEX. Two GEX sets in one train was usual for Chur - Disentis (either the 11.14 or 12.14 departures from Chur). And yes indeed there would definitaly have been a shuffle at Disentis as one GEX set of six coaches is the maximum for the steep (partially rack) MGB route West of Disentis. 

[jonhall]

It was the first year I had a digital camera, so yes, although the hour might well be wrong. I booked a last minute holiday, got quite a cheap upgrade to 1st class, then discovered the Gotthard 125 event was on at Erstfeld, so managed to get a day at that as a bonus.

 

Jon

[Samedan]

27 August 2017, east/south bound GEx, photos showing standard EW coaches attached at the front of the train as it approaches Landwasser (I was sitting in the GEx panoramic portion). To be honest, I can’t remember whether they were attached at Disentis or Chur? I think it was the latter and that there was only the loco change at Disentis. We got off the train at Samedan for a few days stay. I’ve enjoyed  the information on train formations, thanks. 
 

On another aspect of this thread, I’ve noted the increasing popularity of the Nm9 models, but, whilst I can see the potential to run prototypically long trains through dramatic scenery, I sill find HOm to be a very pleasing combination of large enough to model detail comfortably and convincingly (without requiring magnifying lenses) and possessing reasonable “heft”, with being able to negotiate tight radii and run reasonably convincing short trains. Plus, the variety of the Bemo range in HOm is simply stunning. Put quite simply, getting an HOm coach bogie on the rails is hard enough; I can’t imagine what it’s like in Nm. 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 19/12/2021 at 18:22, Samedan said:

On another aspect of this thread, I’ve noted the increasing popularity of the Nm9 models, but, whilst I can see the potential to run prototypically long trains through dramatic scenery, I sill find HOm to be a very pleasing combination of large enough to model detail comfortably and convincingly (without requiring magnifying lenses) and possessing reasonable “heft”, with being able to negotiate tight radii and run reasonably convincing short trains. Plus, the variety of the Bemo range in HOm is simply stunning. Put quite simply, getting an HOm coach bogie on the rails is hard enough; I can’t imagine what it’s like in Nm. 

 

 

I must admit I find HO a comfortable scale for similar reasons - models are suitable hefty (a Bemo H0e Rhb Ge 4/4’ I had earlier this year was very impressive in that respect).

 

My experience moving from HO to H0e was that it is the width of the overhang either side of the bogies that makes the task of putting them correctly on the rails more difficult, more so than the actual size itself.  As the Kato Nm9 range has an ‘overwide gauge’ that should theoretically make it less difficult, added to which I believe the Kato Nm9 train packs include a railer / re-railer to make the job easier, but I stand to be corrected by those who have built up a collection in Nm9 of course. Keith.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Samedan]

22 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

My experience moving from HO to H0e was that it is the width of the overhang either side of the bogies that makes the task of putting them correctly on the rails more difficult, more so than the actual size itself.

I just find the wheels so tiny. As an artistic and refined sort of chap, I never thought I would have to admit to “fat fingers”. But alas, age has taken its toll! 

[Samedan]

25 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

As the Kato Nm9 range has an ‘overwide gauge’

I’d forgotten that, additional, argument against Nm9!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

29 minutes ago, Samedan said:

I’d forgotten that, additional, argument against Nm9!

 

On the plus side, I was happy with the explanation given when I asked about it in a Kato RhB thread a while back, here:

As I understand it, flexing the gauge is the compromise that makes the range commercially possible.  Bit like OO, perhaps...(best not go there - I'd rather talk about Panorama coaches).

[PaulRhB]

Just buy a plastic railer, or if you buy a Kato set you get one, and there’s no problem. The same issue affects the HOm and Om  

 

I made myself one for Om!

 

[Gordonwis]

7 hours ago, Samedan said:

27 August 2017, east/south bound GEx, photos showing standard EW coaches attached at the front of the train as it approaches Landwasser (I was sitting in the GEx panoramic portion). To be honest, I can’t remember whether they were attached at Disentis or Chur? I think it was the latter and that there was only the loco change at Disentis. 

 

 

Undoubtedly at Chur. On the 'paired' trains the EW stock was the set forming the Chur - St Moritz RE, which ran on its own the rest of the day. Depending on which GEX you were on the RE would have been RE1145, 1149 or 1153